Penals have the worst mainline infantry target size

While Sprint disable weapon, it get you into position a lot quicker to try and take those higher damage shots vs trying to fight at max range. Also during late game there is much more going on which means a quick sprint into position can be quite punishing in regards to AI and AT. Personally, I find G43 across both factions as harder to deal with since you can keep the squad run'n and gun'n to try and get the sniper. Whereas LMG Grens, PG and Volks aren't to good at the chase.

I agree with your first statement somewhat. Again, a blob pushing forward will quickly force a Sniper retreat which can heavily reduce the snipers performance. But, like you said Sprint is fairly late game so one would hope that by that point your sniper has paid itself off.

EDIT: expanded first point

Point is there is no synergy between sprint and high moving accuracy.

When it comes to sprint the only current issue is the "passive sprint" that is available to USF officers (and obers vet 5 if I remember correctly)

I can only speak for myself but fussies are why I stopped playing 1v1. Against OST, you would sometimes see different strats even if they didn't deviate from meta to much. But OKW players would literally pick fussies every game, I would get excited to see Falls/JLI/221. As I try to avoid using reg Guards as much as possible, my only long range option is Airborne. I love the commanders but it gets boring playing the same way each game.

I do understand from the OKW side as fussies provide the techless nade, so it puts a stop to clowncar shenanigans but it does get to be a chore trying to outplay a unit with so many strengths that also come in good commanders that also can get OBER back up if they lose any squads.

That's fair enough I suppose. I have a similar feeling about Guard Motor, except i'm just bored of seeing it every single game.

Point is there is no synergy between sprint and high moving accuracy.

When it comes to sprint the only current issue is the "passive sprint" that is available to USF officers (and obers vet 5 if I remember correctly)

Why are you focusing so much on the action of sprint and not the opportunity it provides? The synergy is the ability to chase away the sniper or outright kill it by getting into position. Same as sprint into faust or Oorah into flame nade/at nade.

To give an example, a PF G43 player uses their 43 vision and/or flare to spot a sniper. A low level player will sprint into attack command, PF will attack at max range which means sniper will most likely retreat with some damage. However, a high level player will continue to sprint into mid-range and start firing while continuing to move forward towards the sniper allowing the player to take advantage of its high moving DPS.
Whereas a JLI player will sprint to about 25 range so and stay stationary to try and pull off one extra crit shot while sniper is retreating.

I am not saying sprint itself is a problem, PF having so much utility is the problem. They have a counter for a lot of different situations.

Why are you focusing so much on the action of sprint and not the opportunity it provides?
....

I am not, I am simply responding to the claim that:

... At high vet they even get sprint which means a late retreat is most likely a death due to the excellent moving DPS...

There is simply no advantage having "excellent moving DPS" and sprint. The unit will either move (sprint) and not fire (so the moving DPS play not part) or be stationary and fire (without the moving multiplier applying).

Can we agree on this and simply move on?

Pfusies don't really have one issue that absolutely makes them broken, but they combine a ton of features that basically no other squad has, especially not in combination. They are overall very easy to use and countering them takes way more effort than using them. Other squads with mixed weapons such as the Assault Guards that you mentioned have e.g. a clear weakness to vehicles due to the lack of snares. I can even drive an LV into them and expect it to win. If I drive an LV into Pfusies to keep them from closing in, I'll get snared. Same with mediums with either double snare or the omnipresent threat of ATGs

They should lose the AT Grenade and keep it as part of the Panzershrek upgrade.

Other squads with mixed weapons such as the Assault Guards that you mentioned have e.g. a clear weakness to vehicles due to the lack of snares.

This is something of a design failure for COH 2 that I would have liked to have been changed. Remove all vehicle snares from all mainline infantry and instead add them to dedicated AT Squads.

For example



Whermacht
Panzerfaust removed from Grenadiers
Grenadiers now have PZB 39 upgrade 40 Ammo, can fire a panzerfaust to snare vehicles



OKW
Panzerfaust removed from Volksgrenadiers when given any upgrade.

Raketenwerfer manpower cost to 210. Puts it on par with the M-42 45mm Anti-Tank Gun.

New Upgrade for Raketenwerfer
Rocket Propulsion Upgrade - Advances in Rocket Technology allow the Raketenwerfer to shoot further with more explosive power (Makes Raketenwerfer 60 range, puts it on Par with the Pak 40)

Sturmpioneers gain anti-tank snare grenade when upgraded with Panzershreck (no longer has stun grenade)



USF
Riflemen - Anti-Tank Grenade now requires Squad to have Bazookas equipped
LT - now has AT Grenade

UKF

Special Weapons Regiment (Commander)
Tank Hunter Infantry Sections removed. Infantry Sections now have Boys AT Rifle upgrade. Equips Infantry sections with Boys AT rifles and allows them to throw AT snare grenades

New Commander Ability added to Special Weapons Regiment replacing Tank Hunter Sections
Infantry Sections upgraded with Boys AT Rifles can now throw AT Satchel Charges like Penals


Soviet

Conscript AT grenade removed. Conscripts now have a PTRS upgrade package which allows them to throw AT Snare Grenade



Changes like this would need some tweaking but would generally improve the game. Units should have clear weaknesses, infantry included.

OKW
Panzerfaust removed from Volksgrenadiers when given any upgrade.

Raketenwerfer manpower cost to 210. Puts it on par with the M-42 45mm Anti-Tank Gun.

New Upgrade for Raketenwerfer
Rocket Propulsion Upgrade - Advances in Rocket Technology allow the Raketenwerfer to shoot further with more explosive power (Makes Raketenwerfer 60 range, puts it on Par with the Pak 40)

Sturmpioneers gain anti-tank snare grenade when upgraded with Panzershreck (no longer has stun grenade)

does the raketen lose the penetration and damage of standard AT guns with this arrangement?

the raketen CANT be a pak-40 copy because it has a 5 man squad size and can retreat, it is a good ATG as it is anyway.


+ the M-42 costs 240 manpower, so the raketen can only realistically be put at 240 manpower.

does the raketen lose the penetration and damage of standard AT guns with this arrangement?

the raketen CANT be a pak-40 copy because it has a 5 man squad size and can retreat, it is a good ATG as it is anyway.


+ the M-42 costs 240 manpower, so the raketen can only realistically be put at 240 manpower.

rak is the best atg of the game hands down since it's so noob friendly just point and shoot oh no bad guys coming better hit R and RUN!

does the raketen lose the penetration and damage of standard AT guns with this arrangement?

the raketen CANT be a pak-40 copy because it has a 5 man squad size and can retreat, it is a good ATG as it is anyway.


+ the M-42 costs 240 manpower, so the raketen can only realistically be put at 240 manpower.

As I mentioned it would need some tweaking but the idea of creating valid weaknesses in units would improve the game overall.


Take Penals for example, which is what the post is originally about. They are great anti infantry but have a clear weakness of not having AT-Grenades and need to be specialized in order to do so. This design philosophy should apply not only to Penals but every factions infantry.

Again I stress that some tweaks would have to be made but it would be a net positive for gameplay since you can't just spam a single unit and conquer the entire map.

Imagine in Starcraft for example that Zerglings could do everything. They could attack ground and air units (which could arguably be considered the tank equivalent in COH2) have extra sight and are available at the start of the match. You wouldn't need to make anything else as you can simply just spam this one unit.

This is the major problem with COH2 as you have too many do it all units in which you can spam like crazy and achieve success fairly easily.

Take a Scenario where I am playing Whermacht. I grenadier spam. Soviet enemy makes light vehicle to counter me. My grenadiers have sprint and I can just brute force my way into killing the light vehicle by sprinting up to it and using Panzerfaust. I used Whermacht as an example but it could easily have been conscripts, Riflemen spam, Panzerfusilier spam/Volks spam.

The point is this shouldn't happen in any of the factions and it is poor game design.

Just wanting to let you guys know, penals ain't no mainline

Just wanting to let you guys know, penals ain't no mainline

How so?

How so?

Conscripts are the Soviet Mainline infantry!

rak is the best atg of the game hands down since it's so noob friendly just point and shoot oh no bad guys coming better hit R and RUN!

yeah because people make 2 of them (sometimes they make between 3 and 5) and a-move attack to cheese their enemy.

at least better players will quickly learn that baiting raketens into revealing themselves for a short range katy/Calliope barrage results in easy ATG kills

Conscripts are the Soviet Mainline infantry!

Then what are Penals? "Semi-elite infantry" like Pgrens?

Then what are Penals? "Semi-elite infantry" like Pgrens?

They were intended to be support infantry. Thus they have a PTRS - In the beginning of coh2 they had a flamer

They were intended to be support infantry. Thus they have a PTRS - In the beginning of coh2 they had a flamer

I through orginal Penal was actually Soviet mainline Inf unit ( with flamer for assault garrison, green cover ) while Cons is support inf ?
Kek.

I through orginal Penal was actually Soviet mainline Inf unit ( with flamer for assault garrison, green cover ) while Cons is support inf ?
Kek.

happy new year 2013

Penals were always an "alt" mainline imo.

Anyway i've been playing the shit out of penals, the problem usually isnt the performance, but the effective trading. You get a lot more mid to long range firepower, but for a squad that's priced with the same reinforce as a guard. There are some solaces to it though. satchel is bugged atm, so if you're a gambling/high awareness player, you can sneak them through places and or take out targets (notification when not bugged gets the sound call out at 1 sec left iirc)

The biggest problem aside from cost effeciency... t1 just sucks, basically no matter what you do, sniper is to slow, m3 loses value rapidly and becomes a specialized spotter (whih is nice to be fair) and penals don't scale nearly as well as cons.

...and penals don't scale nearly as well as cons.

I agree with most of the post, but I have to point out that this the way of thinking that lead to power creep.

People complaint that conscript do not scale well compared to Penal so conscripts got buffed and now people its the other way round...

One should simply redesign things with:
either
create different play styles with Penal as cheap SMG cannon fodder units and conscripts as defensive infatry
or
Replace Penal with cheap AT infatry in T1 and make Penal a doctrinal unit available to NKVD armies so that there 3 types of armies, Guards/shocks/NKVD.

I agree with most of the post, but I have to point out that this the way of thinking that lead to power creep.

People complaint that conscript do not scale well compared to Penal so conscripts got buffed and now people its the other way round...

One should simply redesign things with:
either
create different play styles with Penal as cheap SMG cannon fodder units and conscripts as defensive infatry
or
Replace Penal with cheap AT infatry in T1 and make Penal a doctrinal unit available to NKVD armies so that there 3 types of armies, Guards/shocks/NKVD.

They cost more than conscripts, they require a specific tech. AND on top of that then require and additional upgrade to even get close to competeing with the worst mainline in the game (volks), and then to make matters even worse, its the slowest opening in the game.

its perfectably acceptable for a unit with that high of an entry barrier to scale well.

They cost more than conscripts, they require a specific tech. AND on top of that then require and additional upgrade to even get close to competeing with the worst mainline in the game (volks), and then to make matters even worse, its the slowest opening in the game.

its perfectably acceptable for a unit with that high of an entry barrier to scale well.

And then none will use the Conscripts so the conscripts will "need" another buff and power creep circle will continue.

As you said in the original post the problem is the T1 and not Penals, they have been buffed in many occasions and that created more problem than it solved.