Penals have the worst mainline infantry target size

well,normal infant compare the comander infant,maybe the sovia infant is so powerfull even dont mention the axis normail infant

but i think it is a good idea,so the sovia can win 10:0 in the final match.

After 700hours of pure okw play, I agree with you.


Mech truck opening is long dead on most 2v2-3v3 engagements and MAYBE works against low level blobbers (go mech save fuel go Stuka zu Faus and endanger your whole teching on a two snare rocket vehicle).

I would like to see some real opportunities for okw.

If I was to redesign OKW, I would move Stuka into Schwerer Panzer HQ, then give it a fuel decrease like 10 fuel or give it back some cooldown reduction on its Vet.

Then I would add SdKfz 250 Infantry Halftrack



and Mortar Halftrack into the Mechanized HQ. This would allow Mechanized to be on par with Battlegroup HQ (Healing Building) since you would have a way to gain reinforcement on the field and an alternative to the leIG.

Then Luchs/Puma would be available as upgrade in the Main HQ once either Battlegroup or Mechanized HQ is fully upgraded serving as a in between before Schwerer Panzer HQ.

If I was to redesign OKW, I would move Stuka into Schwerer Panzer HQ, then give it a fuel decrease like 10 fuel or give it back some cooldown reduction on its Vet.

Then I would add SdKfz 250 Infantry Halftrack



and Mortar Halftrack into the Mechanized HQ. This would allow Mechanized to be on par with Battlegroup HQ (Healing Building) since you would have a way to gain reinforcement on the field and an alternative to the leIG.

Then Luchs/Puma would be available as upgrade in the Main HQ once either Battlegroup or Mechanized HQ is fully upgraded serving as a in between before Schwerer Panzer HQ.

The 250 would require some tech cost reworking to make sense. If it comes to early USF would become pointless as a Sturm in the halftrack could melt the rifleman before snares are even available. The M20 would only be reliable from the rear and bazooka on LT would be mandatory.

If it comes to late it would be a pain to get the 250 to VET1 so that it could reinforce. I think OPEL blitz truck would be a bit better, it could heal 2 units while inside and provide forward reinforce while easier to balance due to lack of combat abilities. IT would make PF and JLI even harder to deal with on a regular basis so maybe a slower reinforce compared to base or Battlegroup.

The M20 would only be reliable from the rear and bazooka on LT would be mandatory.

USF needs the Initial fuel cost of its buildings lowered and added onto the secondary Vehicle upgrade so that they can get easier access to AT guns (which is why Airborne is so strong, you can skip the fuel cost of tech to get both .50 cal and At Gun) but anyway that has been spoken to death about USF needing a rework.

If it comes to late it would be a pain to get the 250 to VET1 so that it could reinforce.

The Infantry halftrack doesn't need to be a copy and paste of the Whermacht version, just like how the P4 is different in both factions the Infantry Halftrack can be different as well. If it could reinforce from the start, and have its MG upgrade locked either behind vet or with an ammo upgrade (it would have shared vet like kubel) it would be fine. Would need some tweaking for sure.


To get back on topic though with Penals, I have always been against Penals being a main part of the Soviet unit as it doesn't make much sense thematically. I would swap Penals and Guards, even if they are functionally the same with same stats and what not just for the thematic point of view it would make make way more sense for Penals to be doctrinal. One of the biggest immersion breakers in COH2 for sure is having an army entirely of "criminals" instead of honorable soldiers.

Imagine if Relic took Grenadiers and swapped them out with Ostruppen. It would be equally as stupid having doctrinal Grenadiers.



One thing that Soviets do need for its Infantry is to smooth out the veterancy. Like they are complete shit and then once Vet 3 hits they get all the godly buffs for example conscripts gain roughly 30% -received accuracy at vet 3. Instead of such a large improvement it should be split across each vet level. So in this example 10% for each veterancy level to smooth it out. They would end up being the same vet 3 as they were before but you wouldn't see such dramatic shifts in performance due to losing a squad making wipes less punishing. Wipes on Soviet units especially Penals are extremely brutal due to lack of upgrades to carry them.

Like for Grenadiers or Obersoldaten for example, you wipe a squad which sucks but its not as big a deal due to most of the power of these units coming from Mg-34/Mg-42. They can still kick ass without Vet.
Soviet units without Vet suck complete balls due to all of their power being in Vet 3.

With the Veterancy smoothed out Penals would be in a much better spot.

To get back on topic though with Penals, I have always been against Penals being a main part of the Soviet unit as it doesn't make much sense thematically. I would swap Penals and Guards, even if they are functionally the same with same stats and what not just for the thematic point of view it would make make way more sense for Penals to be doctrinal. One of the biggest immersion breakers in COH2 for sure is having an army entirely of "criminals" instead of honorable soldiers.

Imagine if Relic took Grenadiers and swapped them out with Ostruppen. It would be equally as stupid having doctrinal Grenadiers.



One thing that Soviets do need for its Infantry is to smooth out the veterancy. Like they are complete shit and then once Vet 3 hits they get all the godly buffs for example conscripts gain roughly 30% -received accuracy at vet 3. Instead of such a large improvement it should be split across each vet level. So in this example 10% for each veterancy level to smooth it out. They would end up being the same vet 3 as they were before but you wouldn't see such dramatic shifts in performance due to losing a squad making wipes less punishing. Wipes on Soviet units especially Penals are extremely brutal due to lack of upgrades to carry them.

Like for Grenadiers or Obersoldaten for example, you wipe a squad which sucks but its not as big a deal due to most of the power of these units coming from Mg-34/Mg-42. They can still kick ass without Vet.
Soviet units without Vet suck complete balls due to all of their power being in Vet 3.

With the Veterancy smoothed out Penals would be in a much better spot.

I disagree with the notion of Penals not being "honorable", from what I have gathered there were two types of "Penal" units; well-armed and professional NCOs that are given a second chance to serve and earn their freedom through blood, and "tramplers"-poorly armed and trained infantry meant to clear minefields and other suicidal duties.

Penals in COH2 seem to be the former since they are better armed and professional soldiers, willing to lay down their lives so that their debts to the USSR are paid back in blood.That seems honorable to me.

Regarding veterancy, the most important veterancy bonuses for Grens/Obers arrive at Vet2 instead of them being spread out you get a flat 40% accuracy bonus that completely turn most engagements on their head.This is partially why SOV struggles midgame due to no weapon upgrades available at that time (except DP28 for guards).

Either the effect of To The Last Man should be strengthened by 2% for each bonus, or Penals should receive better moving accuracy with vet, seeing as how they aren't winning long range vs axis inf

Vet 5 Jli have been toned down too

I disagree with the notion of Penals not being "honorable", from what I have gathered there were two types of "Penal" units; well-armed and professional NCOs that are given a second chance to serve and earn their freedom through blood, and "tramplers"-poorly armed and trained infantry meant to clear minefields and other suicidal duties.

Penals in COH2 seem to be the former since they are better armed and professional soldiers, willing to lay down their lives so that their debts to the USSR are paid back in blood.That seems honorable to me.

Regarding veterancy, the most important veterancy bonuses for Grens/Obers arrive at Vet2 instead of them being spread out you get a flat 40% accuracy bonus that completely turn most engagements on their head.This is partially why SOV struggles midgame due to no weapon upgrades available at that time (except DP28 for guards).

Either the effect of To The Last Man should be strengthened by 2% for each bonus, or Penals should receive better moving accuracy with vet, seeing as how they aren't winning long range vs axis inf

I feel most issues with LMG squads for all factions is caused by focus fire. On paper at max range, Penals should do fairly well against LMG Grens. But the LMG focus fire will cause models to drop faster than they should creating a larger disparity in performance than one would think from looking at the data. Truthfully I feel Penals perform fine offensively, it is their inability to create cover to help mitigate model drop speed which causes their poor performance. Since most don't want more units to lay sand bags the easiest fix would be to remove focus fire and work from there.

I disagree with the notion of Penals not being "honorable", from what I have gathered there were two types of "Penal" units; well-armed and professional NCOs that are given a second chance to serve and earn their freedom through blood, and "tramplers"-poorly armed and trained infantry meant to clear minefields and other suicidal duties.

Penals in COH2 seem to be the former since they are better armed and professional soldiers, willing to lay down their lives so that their debts to the USSR are paid back in blood.That seems honorable to me.

Regarding veterancy, the most important veterancy bonuses for Grens/Obers arrive at Vet2 instead of them being spread out you get a flat 40% accuracy bonus that completely turn most engagements on their head.This is partially why SOV struggles midgame due to no weapon upgrades available at that time (except DP28 for guards).

Either the effect of To The Last Man should be strengthened by 2% for each bonus, or Penals should receive better moving accuracy with vet, seeing as how they aren't winning long range vs axis inf

The penal unit as the main unit does not make sense for two reasons: both variants of the penal unit were armed like a regular infantry unit. 1,24% of all soldiers who served in the Red Army during the war served in penal units.
I agree that Penals have no place in T1 and as main infantry: Replace Penals with Guard - take SVT-40 from Penals, give SVT-40 to Conscripts as an upgrade - take the "merge" from Conscripts - rename Conscripts to Strelki (Riflemans) - move Penals to the place of Guard in commanders - give "merge" to new Penalty

I disagree with the notion of Penals not being "honorable", from what I have gathered there were two types of "Penal" units; well-armed and professional NCOs that are given a second chance to serve and earn their freedom through blood, and "tramplers"-poorly armed and trained infantry meant to clear minefields and other suicidal duties.

Penals in COH2 seem to be the former since they are better armed and professional soldiers, willing to lay down their lives so that their debts to the USSR are paid back in blood.That seems honorable to me.

Regarding veterancy, the most important veterancy bonuses for Grens/Obers arrive at Vet2 instead of them being spread out you get a flat 40% accuracy bonus that completely turn most engagements on their head.This is partially why SOV struggles midgame due to no weapon upgrades available at that time (except DP28 for guards).

Either the effect of To The Last Man should be strengthened by 2% for each bonus, or Penals should receive better moving accuracy with vet, seeing as how they aren't winning long range vs axis inf

I like your take.

The problem starts with the english translation of the word "Penal", both in the soviet and german contexts.

"Penal" units were not necessarily punishment units. They served as a way for already penalized civilians to redeem their service by fighting the war.

The way people understand this term is that they served in the front as tough punishment, which is not true. COH2 does not portray this accurately.

Most, if not all, penal units in Nazi Germany chose themselves to serve in the front (simply because their alternatives were to serve in concentration camps), whilst we do not have a clear picture of what happened in ussr (but I guess the same; gulag < dying in a trench).

Penals are fine in 1v1s. They just suck in larger game modes, to the point of becoming an active detriment.

My issue with them (that will likely never get fixed), is how they act like riflemen, but without the snare or anti-infantry upgrades. They are so expensive that you do not want to engage outside of green cover or be bled past the 5 minute mark, and don't really fill any important niche in the soviet lineup. They don't even get sandbags. Why should you ever build penals when you can go for conscripts and supplement with guards for PTRS anyways?

Awesome voicelines though.

Penals are fine in 1v1s. They just suck in larger game modes, to the point of becoming an active detriment.

My issue with them (that will likely never get fixed), is how they act like riflemen, but without the snare or anti-infantry upgrades. They are so expensive that you do not want to engage outside of green cover or be bled past the 5 minute mark, and don't really fill any important niche in the soviet lineup. They don't even get sandbags. Why should you ever build penals when you can go for conscripts and supplement with guards for PTRS anyways?

Awesome voicelines though.

OKW players literally have Breakthrough/Grand offensive on standby in case someone uses SOV T1, and they also have JLI commanders/Firestorm in case someone plays UKF.I swear playing OKW is literally like being given everything on a silver platter, having commanders/units that completely counter any unit/strat that would otherwise be troublesome or require some skill to beat.

Fusiliers are easy mode vs SOV T1, 6man upgrade with 90% accuracy on the move(something that penals should have considering they don't win long-range fights), beat penals up close whilst having half the number of semiauto rifles etc.

Penals with AI weapon upgrades are actually very strong, coincedentally they were never given any by default(almost sounds like a biased balancing team), double Vickers K from the UKF M3 actually push them into elite infantry territory and that strategy was REMOVED by the balancing team with no explanation.

Almost sounds to me like the balance team had a certain person that mained 4v4 OKW with Grand Offensive.

OKW players literally have Breakthrough/Grand offensive on standby in case someone uses SOV T1, and they also have JLI commanders/Firestorm in case someone plays UKF.I swear playing OKW is literally like being given everything on a silver platter, having commanders/units that completely counter any unit/strat that would otherwise be troublesome or require some skill to beat.

Fusiliers are easy mode vs SOV T1, 6man upgrade with 90% accuracy on the move(something that penals should have considering they don't win long-range fights), beat penals up close whilst having half the number of semiauto rifles etc.

PF do not have 90% accuracy on the move:
G43 on the move:
0.5064/0.3864/0.3408

K98 on the move:
0.4025/0.374/0.345

Penals with AI weapon upgrades are actually very strong, coincedentally they were never given any by default(almost sounds like a biased balancing team), double Vickers K from the UKF M3 actually push them into elite infantry territory and that strategy was REMOVED by the balancing team with no explanation.

Because the combo was broken. M3 resupply truck was a bad designed to begin with and it had to be practically removed from the game with CP and other restrictions. At least now a player can use the unit.

Almost sounds to me like the balance team had a certain person that mained 4v4 OKW with Grand Offensive.

PLS avoid conspiracy theories since they are not really helpful.

Penals with AI weapon upgrades are actually very strong, coincedentally they were never given any by default(almost sounds like a biased balancing team), double Vickers K from the UKF M3 actually push them into elite infantry territory and that strategy was REMOVED by the balancing team with no explanation.

While it was kinda funny when (arranged) teams pulled it off, it got removed because it was broken.

The combat veterancy with then double 1.3 accuracy multipliers (now 1.3 and 1.2 at vet 2 and 3 respectively) is clearly not designed with weapon slots in mind.

Almost +70% dps at vet 3 and double LMG turned them into absolute terminator squads that won every fight with ease to a point where it was hopeless for axis inf. Some people even took that a step further and spammed "For Mother Russia" with then +50% accuracy

It was as bad as when Conscripts had 2 slots or when the +300% accuracy cover bonus from Osttruppen applied to their slot weapons with 0 penalty

PF do not have 90% accuracy on the move:
G43 on the move:
0.5064/0.3864/0.3408

K98 on the move:
0.4025/0.374/0.345

Im assuming he is talking about their 80% movement modifier which makes them excellent for chase down wipes.

While it was kinda funny when (arranged) teams pulled it off, it got removed because it was broken.

The combat veterancy with then double 1.3 accuracy multipliers (now 1.3 and 1.2 at vet 2 and 3 respectively) is clearly not designed with weapon slots in mind.

Almost +70% dps at vet 3 and double LMG turned them into absolute terminator squads that won every fight with ease to a point where it was hopeless for axis inf. Some people even took that a step further and spammed "For Mother Russia" with then +50% accuracy

It was as bad as when Conscripts had 2 slots or when the +300% accuracy cover bonus from Osttruppen applied to their slot weapons with 0 penalty

Even now, with a single LMG they are great. With Airborne Guards dropping DP, I can literally upgrade my Penals also which makes them a terror at range. They are also a decent amount stronger per gun due to the vet you described.

Overall, they probably should have removed a weapon slot or even both and made their VET a bit better. It probably would have been easier to balance that way.

Im assuming he is talking about their 80% movement modifier which makes them excellent for chase down wipes.

Fact remains they do not have 90% accuracy on the move (and 80% is not 90%). A single modifier, that applies to half the weapons of a sqaud, on its own does not say much and one should be looking at total DPS.

Allies also have infatry that are "excellent for chase down wipes" while VG and grenadiers are not.

(edited to clarify)

Fact remains they do not have 90% accuracy on the move (and 80% is not 90%). The modifier on its own does not say much and one should be looking at total DPS.

Allies also have infatry that are "excellent for chase down wipes" while VG and grenadiers are not.

I was just commenting on him using accuracy. I agree the modifier on its own doesn't say much, I wish there was a way for the game to show what certain increases due such as acc/cooldown/moving acc/reload etc..

However moving on to total DPS, a stationary PF G43 does 9.418 while moving does 8.266 which means almost 88% of total DPS is maintained. Drops to a bit above 86% with VET, giving a quick look no other weapon maintains that level of performance on the move which is why it works so well in blobs.

Again I am assuming Serelias numbers are accurate.