I was right about the failure of COH3.

RTS not popular because people are musch dumber today. It is established fact that global IQ drops 1 point per year.
People simply do not have the brain to play these games.

True but them also being balanced around playing 8hours a day and having no love/social life is not the best thing to do.

I have repeatedly talked about this (did I cite my "Make COH3 MP F2P to save the franchise" post?). The business model of F2P and paid shit inside game is the future for every game that wants to have a decent pool of players.

We know, it doesn't make it true though.

I get your point when a game is seemingly prioritizing balance over fun but I think you can do that without flooding the ranked automatch with crazy bullshit mechanics that often only lead to fun for one side but not both. Add official fun game modes to the game and give the community access to very powerful modding tools etc.

Yeah idk how people think the balance is just about esports. It's not fun for average players to play against broken things either, and coh2 has been full of them

Not to mention they have had multiple patches directed at team games, which is far less competitive than 1v1. They have been doing this for the entire community

Because according to statistics, eSports is about 10% of the game's audience. And reworking the game so that these 10% would be comfortable to play without thinking that other people can lose fun in the game is a very bad idea. That's why I don't like all the esports hype and balancing around the esports mode. For eSports, there should be a separate game mode.

Thats the best case scenario. I've been saying for a long time that hyper-balance focused esports should be its own workshop mod so everyone else doesn't have to suffer from bland/boring units. I enjoyed the flavour that Coh2 used to have /sigh

a lot of points i dont agree with the video.

1. live service. early 2000 theres no such thing as live service yet ppl still plays them and its by far some of the best RTS every made. AOE2, Homeworld for example, as long as the RTS was unique and fun or oddly cheesy enough for fans to enjoy. Even to this day, noone has ever achieved anything to the likes of homeworld.

2. mod tools. Its not mandatory for devs. Its an added value down the pipeline (1-2 yrs later) but its not mandatory if your game is fun or even sandbox lite. Supcom for example

3. Author uses most of his experience from starcraft &warcraft as the template of RTS games in general. There are alot of RTS games out there in the market even the early 2000 with unique or realistic simulation that doesnt have to follow the footsteps of blizzard games. This what made RTS popular at the first place. total war, homeworld, battlestations, ground control, sacrifice are just examples of what RTS could be.

a lot of points i dont agree with the video.

3. Author uses most of his experience from starcraft &warcraft as the template of RTS games in general. There are alot of RTS games out there in the market even the early 2000 with unique or realistic simulation that doesnt have to follow the footsteps of blizzard games. This what made RTS popular at the first place. total war, homeworld, battlestations, ground control, sacrifice are just examples of what RTS could be.

The author is mainstream and seems like he only discovered the existence of 1 indi RTS game out of his bucket list: SC/WC/C&C/AoE, hell his voice tone is more related to Top10 bullshit videos than expert analysis on a specific area.

Modding tools are very important. We know a bunch of games that have gone from being a mod to a standalone game (like Dota), we know that mods sell the game (like the Desert Combat mod for BF1942 sold 3 million copies of BF1942). And I hope Relic fixes the mistake CoH2 didn't provide full modding tools that now could give tons and tons of content over the 8 years of the game's life and CoH2 could be a different game now, with more unique commanders and units.

Modding tools are very important. We know a bunch of games that have gone from being a mod to a standalone game (like Dota), we know that mods sell the game (like the Desert Combat mod for BF1942 sold 3 million copies of BF1942). And I hope Relic fixes the mistake CoH2 didn't provide full modding tools that now could give tons and tons of content over the 8 years of the game's life and CoH2 could be a different game now, with more unique commanders and units.

Very good that you forgot the best example for a modded game that came be successful.. COUNTER STRIKE!!^^

Coh3 is already heading in the direction the video mentioned anyway, if you got the impression that the game is going to be super competitive focused then honestly i'd advise going for a medical check-up since you may have a tumor.

They outright stated according to their stats (relic did in one of their vids) that most play campaigns, so they want to put more resources there.

Though tbh, if you look at it objectively, coh2 has literally only grown from having a well of balance and consistent content outflow. In an ideal world though. Campaign draws in people with spectacle, they get a thirst for more fun gameplay (ie not destroying bots) and go to mp and stick around because the game has multiple modes of enjoyment to it and layers on the various experiences in a way that isn't just 1v1. While retaining focus on 1v1 as a focal point for balancing

Modding tools are very important. We know a bunch of games that have gone from being a mod to a standalone game (like Dota), we know that mods sell the game (like the Desert Combat mod for BF1942 sold 3 million copies of BF1942). And I hope Relic fixes the mistake CoH2 didn't provide full modding tools that now could give tons and tons of content over the 8 years of the game's life and CoH2 could be a different game now, with more unique commanders and units.

Very true. Last night I played a mod called "Horde Defense" or something which gave completely new prespectives and playing styles to COH2, like having the Schwere truck for OKW "only" costing 540mp and 70fuel whilst providing only a laser turret and having some subupgrades to protect the area against attacks. It was actually so refreshing I thought I was playing a new game altogether.

Lelic really fucked up on the mod part. And don't say for a minute that community maps count.

Coh3 is already heading in the direction the video mentioned anyway, if you got the impression that the game is going to be super competitive focused then honestly i'd advise going for a medical check-up since you may have a tumor.

They outright stated according to their stats (relic did in one of their vids) that most play campaigns, so they want to put more resources there.

Though tbh, if you look at it objectively, coh2 has literally only grown from having a well of balance and consistent content outflow. In an ideal world though. Campaign draws in people with spectacle, they get a thirst for more fun gameplay (ie not destroying bots) and go to mp and stick around because the game has multiple modes of enjoyment to it and layers on the various experiences in a way that isn't just 1v1. While retaining focus on 1v1 as a focal point for balancing

Don't get your hopes up too much about COH3 brother. Remember that it will be a paid RTS in 2022. How good can that go honestly. Look at what happened with AOE4 where there is zero mod support, and the player numbers have come down to COH2 levels within 5 months [proof].

Maybe the campaign will be good and make players thirsty for more. We can only hope.

What the fuck am I reading/watching?

a doomsdayer, they happen a lot apperently.

Modding tools are very important. We know a bunch of games that have gone from being a mod to a standalone game (like Dota), we know that mods sell the game (like the Desert Combat mod for BF1942 sold 3 million copies of BF1942). And I hope Relic fixes the mistake CoH2 didn't provide full modding tools that now could give tons and tons of content over the 8 years of the game's life and CoH2 could be a different game now, with more unique commanders and units.

its a different time. now we have DRM, steam, DLC and server side authentication, those mod tools are extremely limited cos last thing they need is a mod that cut their revenue stream.

i cant wait for cho3

the fundamental difference is that CoH is no classic RTS, because of so many revolutionary mechanics: Resource nodes, Cover, angles, set up time, the system of soft counters, cutoffs etc.

Classic RTS is rock paper scissors and who clicks faster

the fundamental difference is that CoH is no classic RTS, because of so many revolutionary mechanics: Resource nodes, Cover, angles, set up time, the system of soft counters, cutoffs etc.

Classic RTS is rock paper scissors and who clicks faster

Agree 1000%.

Just watch that this was the direction the community patches were heading to. Every faction pretty much the same, and the best metaer wins.

the fundamental difference is that CoH is no classic RTS, because of so many revolutionary mechanics: Resource nodes, Cover, angles, set up time, the system of soft counters, cutoffs etc.

Classic RTS is rock paper scissors and who clicks faster

Very well said. Sometimes Mr DonneChan actually makes good points! Also you forgot, that the strategic depth of this game is much more advanced than most RTS

I CALLED IT:

All my life I have been preaching that balancing around numbers and stats instead of design decisions is wrong and unfun. Today on the trending stuff this got posted:

This is an important topic.
Just to add, Beastyqt commentary as a pro-AoE4 player (former SC2). He won the recent $100 000 AOE4 Tournament.

Beastyqt Reacts to the: "Next Major RTS Will Fail. This Is Why":


Beastyqt | The REAL Reason Why RTS Games Fail:


Beastyqt also emphasize the importance of player retention. Relic openly stated that retention was one of the primary reasons they gave up on DoW3.

WHY DAWN OF WAR III FAILED, ACCORDING TO RELIC;

When asked about what measurements Relic was looking at regarding Dawn of War III's success, Boudreau stated "Retention and sentiment were the two biggest measures we were watching most closely."

https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/2018-08-02-why-dawn-of-war-iii-failed-according-to-relic

My POV & 2 cents;
Can Relic financially succeed with CoH3? Only if they focus their talent and cut wasteful spending to improve Sega's return on investment (ROI). As of right now, they have RTS talent spread thin.
Prematurely expanding Relic to 300+ devs was a high-risk gamble that can easily backfire.

With AoE4 underperforming and losing players, it's now up to CoH3 to keep a 300+ devs studio financially afloat.


With the CoH2 launch, Relic had 110 devs.
This is not rocket science. 2+2 = 4.
By the end of the day, Relic is a corporation. They are not your friends.
Nowadays with big-budget games, it's all about money, monetization schemes and ROI.

By western law (fiduciary duty), Relic/Sega leaders have one important job. Make a good return on investment from CoH2/DoW3/AoE4. Did they succeed?
lol, hell no.


I'm not posting this to defend Sega's money-making. Just saying if fans/devs fail to discuss good monetization schemes then CoH3 will end like CoH2. Then the CoH3 community will be left to keep the game on life support while Relic/Sega moved on to greener pastures.

Relic's five-year plan for Company of Heroes 2;
https://www.eurogamer.net/relics-five-year-plan-for-company-of-heroes-2

But I get the impression Relic is more excited by the addition of War Spoils, the new content delivery system that it hopes will fuel the game's success in the future.

How many times do I have to keep posting this before fans get a grip on the reality of why CoH2 failed? Read between the lines and learn from CoH2 mistakes. An error does not become a mistake until fans/studio/publisher refuse to correct it.

The ultimate CoH2 irony? War Spoils was so horribly broken that the pro-EA Fifa guys in Relic/Sega never got a good chance to fully implement the new monetization scheme.
Yes, the money guys did play the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Shame on you.

Know the dark history of EA Fifa;


Know the dark history of CoH2 War Spoils [War Spoils Skydive Event]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKwmEriIIIs

So why does Relic/Sega not openly discuss CoH3 monetization schemes?
A few logical conclusions;
1) Relic/Sega scared of being called out as greedy?
2) Incompetence?
3) laziness/negligence?
4) Predatory CoH3 intent disguised as virtue? This is playing the wolf in sheep's clothing.
As a studio/publisher, this is highly immoral as they basically engage in psyops against an innocent fanbase.
Not cool.

Example of EA psyops, playing the wolf in sheep's clothing;

...

You really shouldn't compare CoH3 and AoE4 because the subject cant be even more different then it is.

AoE4 failure (if it is indeed so) honestly has nothing to do with either Relic\Sega, objectively. AoE in general is an old school RTS game, with insane amount of content, insane fanbase and gameplay being perfected though years.

It was a bold move to even try to create AoE4, because is no way it was even possible to create something which will please fans of old AoE games, let alone have more content\be more appealing then older games.

The same way we never see Warcraft 4 (besides the fact that Blizzard is a shitfest) they understand that unless you create something which is significantly better then its predecessor, has all the content + more, there is no way in a world people will drop their old RTS in favour of a new one.


As for CoH2\DoW3 Relic pushes their ideas, trying to either base their decisions by sheet papers created by some generic game designers and managers. And it was clear, even if we look at how they balanced their game openly mocking the community and people, by saying that "we think its not a problem". And the manifestation of this approach was DoW3, which wasnt liked by either DoW1\DoW2 fans.

Point is being: Dont invent a bicycle with RTS, if you want it to be successful look at your player base, add more content and improvements of working foundation without destroying it. Not questionable changes, like CoH2 did, but improvements.

So far, I honestly don't give a damn if Relic gonna sell us commanders\skins again. If game is generally good, if content is balanced and a new one, there is objectively nothing wrong with it. And as for game itself, who cares if relic is a corporation which just wants out money. They fucked up with DoW3 and now, their idea is to please the fans by not inventing the bicycle again, which is good, because they have less space for generic retarded game-designers to fuck up series a lot of people like.

At least so far we didnt saw "unit replacement", "bulletins" and other crap for potential monetisation, so unless relic do a gut-punch on release with something they didnt announce, it will be inf\vehicle skins and commanders ones again, which is completely fine.

Even CoH2 monetisation in its essence is completely fine. Sure we have a huge amount of commanders you pretty much have to buy, if you are newcomer, but come on. Even if we bring game like PayDay2, if someone played it from the start, and bought DLC when they came out, then its fine throwing 5-10$ every couple of months for the game you spent a lot of time in. Its infair to judge coh2 monetisation, since you have almost 8 years of DLC content, sure its might be a lot to buy.

I really like the graphics, style, factions... everything; that AOE4 has. Except the "Who clicks faster" gameplay. One unit, one command. Battle for middle earth and Company of heroes have the best, most epic gameplay. Infantry squads. In COH it's the cover/positioning. In BFME it's tactical assault: How to move units to not get pancaked by the catapults/siege. If AOE4 actually said goodbye to old school RTS, and changed it, I sure as hell know I'd play more.
The game itself is brilliant, but after I watched a couple of tournament players play.... I mean... how many hours a day do they play AOE4 to be as quick as they are? 34 hours in a 24 hour day? And it's extreme meta. Anything that is ranged is spammed and carefully moved. Why would anyone want to get better at AOE4 to be more competitive in ranked matchmaking, if that means that you WILL HAVE TO start using the tested methods of winning and you'll need to risk carpal tunnel and whatnot just to be extra speedy with the clicks.