The problem with USF Rear Echelon Squads

Who say they lose so badly? Your just doing a strawman + personal insult as main argument, as usual shall I say.
I said they don't perform in their ideal condition as much as SP performs for the same or even larger price tag difference.
OKW early game has been buffed with medic crate, SP buffed and Kubel changes while, as I stated, volks received minimum nerfs. At the same time having enable so much T1 make OKW much more oppressive while back then when T2 was the get to go their early game was less.

RE nerf has just enable more the kubel dominance vs USF, and it was highlighted during the patch preview but put aside by the modding team to reach the situation we're facing today, RE are neither good vs infantry or Kubel. Their bad at everything for an expensive price.

Stats since last patch 1v1 top 200 35000 games:

OKW winrate 47,7% - USF winrate 52,2% - USF winrate vs OKW 53%
Nice buffs for OKW mate. LMAO.

kUBel UnBEAtabLE, RIfLEmeN WEAk, EcHELOns USEleSs, JAeGEr OveRPOWered, PLS buff UsF

Stats since last patch 1v1 top 200 35000 games:

OKW winrate 47,7% - USF winrate 52,2% - USF winrate vs OKW 53%
Nice buffs for OKW mate. LMAO.

kUBel UnBEAtabLE, RIfLEmeN WEAk, EcHELOns USEleSs, JAeGEr OveRPOWered, PLS buff UsF

Rear Echelons literally are useless, and by far the weakest unit when not counting medics. How bad are you, that you feel the need to strawman this point lmao

kUBel UnBEAtabLE, RIfLEmeN WEAk, EcHELOns USEleSs, JAeGEr OveRPOWered, PLS buff UsF

None of these claims are unfounded, riflemen are the worst mainline infantry in the game.
Kubel is a good early game bleeder especially against USF with no ultralight of their own and can act as a free maphack after vet1(just park it behind a building.)
RE are far from good.
Jaegers need to be rebalanced.
USF is the weakest faction in-game in teammodes and only second worst in 1v1.

OKW's mediocre winrate stems from it's late medium timing, destructible tech buildings, being paired up against Guard Motor soviets often, worse support weapons relative to OST etc

None of these claims are unfounded, riflemen are the worst mainline infantry in the game.
Kubel is a good early game bleeder especially against USF with no ultralight of their own and can act as a free maphack after vet1(just park it behind a building.)
RE are far from good.
Jaegers need to be rebalanced.
USF is the weakest faction in-game in teammodes and only second worst in 1v1.

OKW's mediocre winrate stems from it's late medium timing, destructible tech buildings, being paired up against Guard Motor soviets often, worse support weapons relative to OST etc

The USF without a doubt has the advantage vs the okw in 1vs1 however.

The USF without a doubt has the advantage vs the okw in 1vs1 however.

That is not true. In terms of stock armies, the Kubel, Luchs and P4J are all massive powerspikes that hurt USF badly. OKW has a slight edge in stock armies which becomes wider if you use a Tiger or Cmd Panther.

Who say they lose so badly? Your just doing a strawman + personal insult as main argument, as usual shall I say.
I said they don't perform in their ideal condition as much as SP performs for the same or even larger price tag difference.
OKW early game has been buffed with medic crate, SP buffed and Kubel changes while, as I stated, volks received minimum nerfs. At the same time having enable so much T1 make OKW much more oppressive while back then when T2 was the get to go their early game was less.

RE nerf has just enable more the kubel dominance vs USF, and it was highlighted during the patch preview but put aside by the modding team to reach the situation we're facing today, RE are neither good vs infantry or Kubel. Their bad at everything for an expensive price.

Medic crates for SP at Vet 0 were added like a hundred years ago, in the same patch that T70's HP was increased to 400, and SP vet buffs have nothing to do with the early game. You're literally pulling shit out of your ass. I had to scroll through to fucking 2017 to find the "recent OKW early game buffs" you're talking about.

Literal stats say Pioneers lose so badly to Riflemen that you're a complete joke of a human being. It's not a strawman to point out that you're barely capable of mouth-breathing.

Rifleman absolutely roflstomp Pioneers at any and every range. It's a 5 man squad which out-dpses Pioneers by 25% at 0-10 range, 200% at mid range, and 650% at long range while having 28% more effective HP and way lower DPS attrition. Pioneers literally only hurt because most players stand in knife distance for 10 seconds while trying to flank and kill an mg42.

Do I think REs suck? Yes, I hate them, and I wish they could at least build sandbags and lay real mines. I use them almost exclusively for wiring and back-capping until Zook duty.

Medic crates for SP at Vet 0 were added like a hundred years ago, in the same patch that T70's HP was increased to 400, and SP vet buffs have nothing to do with the early game. You're literally pulling shit out of your ass. I had to scroll through to fucking 2017 to find the "recent OKW early game buffs" you're talking about.

Literal stats say Pioneers lose so badly to Riflemen that you're a complete joke of a human being. It's not a strawman to point out that you're barely capable of mouth-breathing.

Rifleman absolutely roflstomp Pioneers at any and every range. It's a 5 man squad which out-dpses Pioneers by 25% at 0-10 range, 200% at mid range, and 650% at long range while having 28% more effective HP and way lower DPS attrition. Pioneers literally only hurt because most players stand in knife distance for 10 seconds while trying to flank and kill an mg42.

Do I think REs suck? Yes, I hate them, and I wish they could at least build sandbags and lay real mines. I use them almost exclusively for wiring and back-capping until Zook duty.

Stawman one time, strawman evertime. I let you compare SP vs RE at close range and Riflemen vs Pioneer at close range. The difference isn't value the 20 manpower difference.

Somehow the fascist mods allow you to throw insults even though you are making braindead comments about "Riflemen barely stronger than pioneers".

I already agreed long long ago that Rear Echelons suck. The only strawman is your brain.

Pointing out that you called 2017 changes "recent OKW buffs" isn't a fucking strawman. You straw-brained moron.

Do you have any other way to argument than insulting people? no?

I'm in a good mood today so I'll pass on it for once and try to respond to you. Let me recall what I wrote:

(riflemen)
- They get destroyed mid to close range by Sturmpioneer for only 20 manpower more.
- Considering the delta in cost between them and Pioneer (80 manpower), they should perform the same ways vs pioneer as ST perform vs them, but that's not the case.

Pioneer don't get destroyed by riflemen even if they can't win otherwise nobody would use them to cover their HMG flank. I let you do the test, go in cheat mode place a RE behind yellow cover and rush it with a RM, then do it vs Pioneer and see what happen.
Hint, the 80 manpower difference shows its effect on the RM vs RE match, not the RM vs Pio.

Now, its just an example on why USF early game doesn't perform correctly, I'm not even saying RM vs Pio is problematic, I say the cost difference is problematic. RE, RM are not cost effective and associated to lack diversity in combat options and super slow teching design.

Do you have any other way to argument than insulting people? no?

I'm in a good mood today so I'll pass on it for once and try to respond to you. Let me recall what I wrote:



Pioneer don't get destroyed by riflemen even if they can't win otherwise nobody would use them to cover their HMG flank. I let you do the test, go in cheat mode place a RE behind yellow cover and rush it with a RM, then do it vs Pioneer and see what happen.
Hint, the 80 manpower difference shows its effect on the RM vs RE match, not the RM vs Pio.

Now, its just an example on why USF early game doesn't perform correctly, I'm not even saying RM vs Pio is problematic, I say the cost difference is problematic. RE, RM are not cost effective and associated to lack diversity in combat options and super slow teching design.

Pioneer absolutely do get destroyed by Riflemen. I've literally told you the stats. It's also available on https://coh2.serealia.ca/#. There's no range at which Pioneers can hope to win, and they absolutely get roflstomped in almost all real-game situations.

Sturms cost 20 more than Riflemen, win 60 to 70% of the time vs Riflemen.
Riflemen cost 80 more than Pioneers, win 100% of the time vs Pioneers.


I never once disagreed with you about REs, I've always been targeting your obsession of spreading fake news and using false information to make your points. The reason I hate you so much is that across all the years in this forum, you use false information 99% of the time.

You're intentionally using an unfair test to make a completely false claim. Why would I test Riflemen rushing in vs Pioneers into the best combat range for the Pioneers? Riflemen outdps Pioneers by 650 to 700% at long range. Why would I rush in and take a 25% advantage instead while losing accuracy running in? That is obviously the most biased test possible.

This is basically equivalent to claiming that Grenadiers are underpowered, and then you do 100 cheat mod tests where they rush into close range vs Riflemen sitting behind cover and the Grenadiers lose 100% of the time.

You are intentionally using Pioneer's best possible engagements with Riflemen being used inefficiently on purpose to claim some bullshit point about Riflemen not stomping Pioneers.

I've already destroyed your intellectually invalid arguments completely about 250 posts ago. I insult you because you deserve it, because you are dishonest and despicable in using false information.

I've already destroyed your intellectually invalid arguments completely about 250 posts ago. I insult you because you deserve it, because you are dishonest and despicable in using false information.

Wow somebody is taking a videogame way too seriously.

Wow somebody is taking a videogame way too seriously.

I am taking away your based card. Hand it over.

I am taking away your based card. Hand it over.

it was sarcasm mate false alarm sorry

The problem with USF early game is that it is by far the weakest.

Agreed. I have been saying this for the longest but RE need to start as a 5 man squad. Even if it has to cost 300 Manpower (to prevent RE Spam). The reason being is that USF rarely makes more than one RE squad unless they have Grenade Launchers or Pershing so the extra combat power from the additional squad member would make RE a decent starting unit.

USF isn't supposed to rely on RE.they are not meant to be an alternative to rifles. They are not supposed to be able to fight anything unsupported. Their job, as the name may hint towards, is to be in the rear. They are basically ostroppen teir that trade squad size (and thus combat power) with utility. They can do a lot of they have to, but none of it well. They are stop gap, reserve infantry not combat infantry.

They can do a lot of they have to, but none of it well. They are stop gap, reserve infantry not combat infantry.

I would maybe even say they can do AT pretty well with 2x zooks. Its far from the best AT squad but its very cost effective and pretty solid at vet 3

Volley fire could be slightly better, but it's easy for that to become OP

Ok, a unit for rear position which cant deal damage in flanking job (?) even cant proper deal with pior in green cover (?).
Nice try.

USF isn't supposed to rely on RE.they are not meant to be an alternative to rifles. They are not supposed to be able to fight anything unsupported. Their job, as the name may hint towards, is to be in the rear. They are basically ostroppen teir that trade squad size (and thus combat power) with utility. They can do a lot of they have to, but none of it well. They are stop gap, reserve infantry not combat infantry.

That would be true if pios were the same or CEs for that matter.
Rear echelons have one early game utility... lay tank traps.
Tank traps are useless vs MG42s because they are so weirdly modeled that the MG42 will always suppress in a burst or two any squad behind the line of tank traps (2+).
They are decently useful to hold against pushes, as they are green cover, but besides that, useless (ok, harder to destroy than sandbags).

They lay useless mines.
Their only real useful utility are the caches (later on) and carrying zooks to deter P4 dives (even later, after BARs).

Now I've done the tests and I found the following:

Rear echelon behind green cover, solo pio charging over neutral cover: Pio wins with 2 models remaining, echelon retreats with 1 model. Only way to stop is to use muni for the volley.

The test where Rifles charge pioneers behind green cover, over neutral terrain: Rifles win with 2 models remaining on average, pios retreat with 1 model.
So on one hand, an engineer unit can charge another engineer unit and win easily, but a mainline unit doing the same thing to the engineer unit (pioneer) will win a Pyrrhic victory. You will bleed more than pios, and let the incoming grens/MG42 do the job easily. God forbid you play on a lane-y map where you can't flank and the MG42's wide arc can easily cover 2+ points.

The first skirmish is echelon vs pio, pio wins. By the time your rifles come to the frontline, so does the MG42.... good luck. If you decide to wait for the rifles to join the echelons to have a 2v2, then you're in for a treat because on most 3v3+ maps you really need to take the long way around (grens come) to flank. Not to mention that you need to chase down an MG42 while pios are closing in and putting a hurt on you.

Also did the following test. Pios vs rifles, pios come around the sight blocker (test done on beach Across the rheine, bushes around the neutral point below the hill).

Rifles standing still in neutral cover, pios come from neutral cover and the whole skirmish is with both units in neutral cover... just to show the close range power of pios... pios retreated with 1 model, rifles with 2 models. 4 times in a row... 4 model pio put a hurt on 5 model 280 MP rifles close range, neutral cover.
One thing I've learned from experience is: If you are fighting rifle + echelon vs pio + gren... And the pio is charging... Even if the grens are in red cover, focus the pios first. If they get close enough, both echelons and rifles will go down quickly. I know because it happened to me last game. Didn't even notice a pio charging, both rifles and echelon were behind yellow cover ( I was fighting on a different part of the map and I can easily press "1" and "T" in case of a rifle nade). Rifles and echelon were firing at the neutral cover gren, while pios literally mowed down both echelon and rifles to 1-2 models each, as they closed in point blank. Close in point blank with echelons and you'll have enough time to boil some tea before echelons kill anything


Of course, as time goes by, you get the flamer to scale, at which point rifles lose until double BARs come (or win a Pyrrhic victory). Later on, there is no way for the pios to win in any way-shape or form against rifles, as expected. But the opening skirmishes in teamgames, OST is vastly superior to USF in 90% of scenarios. Heck, if I see that I have a spawn against OST on a lane-y map in my VP lane, I just ignore it and help my teammate 2v1 on the next closest lane.
Not only are most green cover positions designed for 4 model squads, but the idea of rifles being short range specialists makes them useless in long range cover to cover skirmishes against grens and MG42. Only those long tanks/pick-up truck/sandbags green covers can actually fit a whole squad of 5 models (hence why volks have sandbags).
Most green cover objects will deceive you and you'll get insta suppressed, or you'll lose that one model very quickly. That + the fact that tank traps are completely unreliable really shows why USF is seldom played in higher ranks and why you really need to put a lot more micro into your gameplay to win teamgames. Retarded map design coupled with rifles being only good on close range (exceptionally good, but so are pios/spios)


So in the end, REs don't really have early game utility. They don't have late game utility in the form of mine planting. Their only real utility is the fact that they can carry double zooks, which can be used defensively against tank dives. And it's not like those zooks are free on them. It still costs 100 Muni and can often mean that you won't be able to plant doctrinal mines or use other abilities as much as you would want. If they had a 10 muni smoke that doesn't require teching, then all would be well, but they don't. They are not only useless early game, they are not very useful later on as well (let's be honest, how many times zooks penetrate on anything tougher than a flakpanzer, if they even hit).

I know a lot about RE zooks as in 90% of games I play the heavy cavalry and I do have double Rear echelon in late game with 4 zooks (repair and anti dive). Trust me, if you plant mines with rifles, you won't have for the zooks, nor will you have if you decide to use WP from howitzers or nades/snares. Average muni income is 35/min in 3v3s on a good day... Good luck.

Cover is "sticky" and thus one can change the position of entities behind cover. If you can not take cover behind 3 tank trap you certainly doing something wrong...


M7 Mines are not useless they slow down vehicles and do damage and are decent to in making flanking move more difficult.


Charging an smg unit behind green cover with riflemen is a miss use or riflemen and should be avoided. They can easily win with no casualties at long to mid range, so I am not sure what the point of that test is. This is the equivalent of complaining that PG lose in cover to cover fight vs Tommies at long range.


Pios have to build the T1 building before even moving to the front line so your description is not very accurate.


DPS of pioneer is at similar level of that RO who have better target size and inferior to RE DPS above range 13 so it is in line with other similar units.


Riflemen are NOT "short range specialists" they are not using smgs but carbines that mid to far weapons.

Pioneer even with flamer are not that good at fighting.


RE get a vet 1 accuracy bonus that increases the chance of hits with bazookas and bazookas do not have to penetrate to cause damage.

RE with bazookas are a very cost efficient unit.

Lmfao vipper being obnoxious and "pointing-out stuff" no one cares about.Riflemen are close-range, they lose against all Axis infantry mid-long range even with BARs.Riflemen only do solid damage at close range, if you want to force a MG42 to retreat you have to get close to it, that's where the Pios come in as close-range bodyguards and stop you from doing so, if you focus the Pios the MG42 will retreat to a better position whilst the Pios have your attention, or he just repositions on the spot and suppresses your Rifle squad.

HOW is this SO HARD to understand vipper? How long are you going to make stuff up, how long are you going to be obnoxious for, make strawmen arguments and never contribute to a conversation?