My real problem with COH3

Jump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 21:20 PMDonnieChan

How about a fun tourney with a 100% abandon chance mod.

I'd watch that

Jump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 21:20 PMDonnieChan

How about a fun tourney with a 100% abandon chance mod.

I'd watch that

Jump back to quoted post8 Dec 2021, 17:59 PMBasedSecretary

I have been playing COH since I have known myself. It's been a good game.

Even COH2 after all these patches still gets more things right than wrong and that's why it's quite popular in the declining RTS market.

So I have played the Alpha COH3. Nevermind the graphical glitches, the overpowered units and the unfinished art, the real problem is that the company thinks that "involving" the community more will make a better game.

And it will not. I have some arguments for this. I might be wrong of course. I'm looking for a discussion, not a pronunciamento.

• The community cannot balance shit, because this is normally a job reserved for real professionals who have in-depth knowledge of what "balance" means in the context of the game to be made. The players should only be there to give opinion on closed environments. Something like what all good RTS companies have done since the dawn of time. AoE and AoEII had 200 ppl closed betas that met more like pals for a nice evening than gamers.
  
• The community cannot balance shit, because the players want their own faction to win. As they are not designers, they don't realize the scale of balance and also the model which seeks to be adopted. Most players, myself included, act emotionally to some things. I can't even get a grip on the number of times when many people lost to a specific unit, calling it OP and demanding its nerf.
  
• I guess I'm kinda nostalgic, seeing that COH 1 didn't really have that many updates (leaving aside expansion packs). It was a game. You liked it, you played it as it was. You didn't like it, you didn't play it again. It was simple. I realize it was horribly unbalanced in many departments (too USF friendly in some aspects, particularly PE vs USF).
  

So, in a nutshell, I just really want COH3 to succeed. RTS is slowly dying, let's not kid ourselves. I hope Relic won't fuck this up. AOE4 seems decent and its numbers are healthy. I can see there still is a demand.

Jump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 20:13 PMdonofsandiego

I play to have fun. Abandons are fun. Simple as. And there are plenty others like me who play CoH2 just as much as you and I do.

Jump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 09:13 AMaerafield

2) Relic did not ask the community for help in CoH2 until 2016 when they realized they messed up, until then they basically had a "we know it better" approach and the balance was the worst mess ever. People who are around since 2013 unlike some 2018 CoH2 Steam Sale Andys, know exactly what I am talking about

Jump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 10:26 AMKlement Pikhtura

Changes from when I started playing back in early 2019:

• ISU was OP af with 70 range HE - 24/7 mid VP camp machine was nerfed .
  
• Cons were decent only in 6 first minutes of the game and pretty much not worth building late game - was fixed.
  
• Calls-ins (e.g. command panther stall without Panzer HQ) - got fixed.
  
• Heavy tanks are decent now, not op, not useless, but can be actually used.
  
• 1 click counter barrage - removed.
  
• Self spotting heavy TD - fixed
  
• Multiple "swiss knife" level commanders that could counter Armor and arty - fixed.
  
• Grens and Pgrens were squishy, thus making most of OST infantry expensive to maintain late game - fixed
  
• OKW healing became more affortable
  
• OKW ober timing improved.
  
• t70 got nerfed
  
• Lots of units became useful (g43 grens, Assgrens, 120mm, KV1 come to mind), UKF has lots of variety and the list goes on. And that what came to mind.
  

Please someone read the list and tell with a straight face that balance team is worse then what relic did and is biased towards one side/faction.

Show Spoiler

Jump back to quoted post9 Dec 2021, 12:46 PMBasedSecretary

You've got a nice point which I cannot ignore.

Perhaps saying that community cannot balance shit was a bit too much. What I meant in depth was that there are more ways to balance a mechanic rather than a straight up numbers game.

For example, for years people complained of Sturmtiger being too OP. So what did the balance team did? They just removed some vision and the ability to repair and reload. So basically they asked for 2% more micro for a still very potent killing machine. Guess what? The community thinks now that sturm is balanced. It's just retarded.

Maybe if there is a new system in place. Who knows. Asymmetrical balance is not and should not be a stats game.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 05:47 AMPorygon

I prefer the OKW when they were release than the braindead A move German Protoss faction here now.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 07:31 AMApplejack

I think part of the reason why the Sturmtiger buff that made it "OP" is two reasons. First they made a prototype change and didn't apply the change to other units. In this case its the AVRE. So Sturmtiger had free reign while the AVRE was at its 'meh' status. Same thing happened with half-track healing. They only do prototype changes on one unit and then the next patch, it gets applied to all units. This is really bad patch balancing and planning in general.

Another reason why it was so memorable and powerful is because for the past 2 years, the balance team has been nerfing every unit to the ground. Everything that was strong is now weak. Everything that was mediocre is now considered 'normal'. Overtime any slight buff makes the unit immediately overpowered because everything else is sucks.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 11:28 AMKlement Pikhtura

Sturmtiger was OP because all the major downsides were removed, while none of the upsides and prior buffs addressed. We had a "high risk high reward" unit that got the "high risk" part removed.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 11:38 AMKatukov

there was no risk before either, it simply didn't hit reliably and that's what moved most people off*

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 11:38 AMKatukov

there was no risk before either, it simply didn't hit reliably and that's what moved most people off*

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 12:48 PMKlement Pikhtura

and that too. You could have still dove it and steal the bastard, which was a risk for the OKW guy. Now you can start reloading after backing up 10 meter and not caring if you get hit or not.
I can't remember if ST was slower during reloading phase before the rework, but if it was, that was also a major contributing factor.

EDIT: BTW ST received several buffs prior due to it being unreliable. So when the rework was live, those buffs were not rolled back.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 13:01 PMProtos Angelus

As far as I know, there is a small mobility nerf during reload, but not much, you can still drive it away. Both AVRE and ST are cancerous, with ST having a larger AOE but AVRE having a turret. Still, unlike AVRE, the ST is in a brilliant commander with the heat shells.
They really should reintroduce the "get out" mechanic if hit during reload.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 13:52 PMVipper

No they should not.

It was removed for good reason since it could be exploited so that one could call multiple SturmTigers.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 15:02 PMMMX

maybe, but i think there could have been other solutions to keep that from happening and still have the abandon mechanic in place. at least the damn thing should become immobilized again while reloading and maybe, MAYBE get reload on the move as a vet 5 bonus like it used to be.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 13:01 PMProtos Angelus

As far as I know, there is a small mobility nerf during reload, but not much, you can still drive it away. Both AVRE and ST are cancerous, with ST having a larger AOE but AVRE having a turret. Still, unlike AVRE, the ST is in a brilliant commander with the heat shells.
They really should reintroduce the "get out" mechanic if hit during reload.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 15:38 PMBasedSecretary

...

Take the original game: SOV vs OST was the perfect example of the asymmetrical balance in the devs' vision. Both factions had the basic tools (MG, AT, Snares) but with very different capacities. P4s were generally more expensive but more sturdy while T34s were shit piles that cost nothing and were reliable generalists. That's what I mean.

...

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 13:52 PMVipper

No they should not.

It was removed for good reason since it could be exploited so that one could call multiple SturmTigers.