I think now ptrs penals are a valid at squad
![avatar of Clarity](/images/avatars/guards.png?updated=1394378846)
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![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
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PTRS Penals are so terrible against upgraded infantry that's its balanced imo. If he spams PTRS to counter vehicles just run him over with infantry.
Many AT squad are terrible vs infatry, if they where not that would promote blooming.
Shreck VGs where not that great against "upgraded infantry" but the design was bad.
![avatar of JPA32](/uploads/avatar/37306.jpg?updated=1554763928)
Posts: 178
Many member of the community agree that Penal/T1 is badly designed so you might as well quite trying to present this if it was only my opinion.
Just here to say I think Penals are a perfect sidegrade to Cons right now.
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Just here to say I think Penals are a perfect sidegrade to Cons right now.
Then unfortunately I have to point out to you that conscripts and Penal are separate units and thus they can not be a sidegrade on of the other, but you are entitled to your opinion.
![avatar of frostbite](/images/no_av.png)
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![avatar of MMX](/images/avatars/panzerwerfer.png?updated=1396279640)
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![avatar of Lady Xenarra](/uploads/avatar/16689.png?updated=1673742845)
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tl;dr They're fine imho.
![avatar of Hannibal](/images/no_av.png)
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![avatar of JohnSmith](/uploads/avatar/17812.jpg?updated=1520428145)
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![avatar of jagd wölfe](/images/avatars/222.png?updated=1396284260)
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![avatar of Protos Angelus](/images/avatars/m20.png?updated=1414778115)
Posts: 1515
The only issue I have with PTRS penals is how effectively they can shut down light vehicle play due to their range and dps compared to other AT infantry. In general, you are better off not ever going for light vehicles because of either penals or guards ptrs
There is a whole map for the LV to roam. Issues arise when one forces the LV into one particular lane where the penals are. Guards are not that scary vs LVs, except maybe vs 222 and the likes. Flak and luchs can easily bleed the guards and force them to retreat, while you only need repairs. Flame HT is also good vs Guards.
Penals are a bit scarier vs LVs because now they have 3 PTSRs. If you see that, then you just don't go for LVs. Easy as that. Same as how you won't go for a king tiger if you see 3 SU85s...
![avatar of Lewka](/uploads/avatar/49972.png?updated=1712870695)
Posts: 309
Just here to say I think Penals are a perfect sidegrade to Cons right now.
Yeah seems like a playstyle preference for sure so you have more variety in choice of mainlines as Soviet
![avatar of SkysTheLimit](/images/avatars/rear_echelons.png?updated=1440837436)
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
T1/Penal simply need a redesign.
What is simple about redesigning a unit that is available for most of the match?
Right now they are well balanced in the beginning as an anti-light. They trade off infantry damage for that. Late game they have the satchel to keep them useful against tanks
How many people have to say the unit is fine before you admit that MAYBE a full redesign isn't a good idea? At least get smaller and more concise with your suggestion, whatever it is
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
What is simple about redesigning a unit that is available for most of the match?
Right now they are well balanced in the beginning as an anti-light. They trade off infantry damage for that. Late game they have the satchel to keep them useful against tanks
How many people have to say the unit is fine before you admit that MAYBE a full redesign isn't a good idea? At least get smaller and more concise with your suggestion, whatever it is
How many people have to say that t1/Penal are NOT ok before redesign?
![avatar of JohnSmith](/uploads/avatar/17812.jpg?updated=1520428145)
Posts: 1273
How many people have to say that t1/Penal are NOT ok before redesign?
The unit is fine and does not need a redesign. Also, the mod team has told you many times that saying the word "re-design" over and over again won't help them to make the unit better.
![avatar of Kurobane](/uploads/avatar/7739.jpg?updated=1378736358)
Posts: 658
The unit is fine and does not need a redesign. Also, the mod team has told you many times that saying the word "re-design" over and over again won't help them to make the unit better.
Agreed that the Penals are fine however considering that Vipper is usually biased and is basically trolling at this point with how he wants to nerf every single allied unit, I think his take on the argument is flawed but he would have some merit to his argument if he were to reframe the argument.
Vipper is obviously biased towards OKW which lack a decent non doctrinal AT Squad. If he were to make that case instead of spewing Nerf all the allied things then he would have a valid argument to make.
Whermacht have Panzer Grenadiers, Soviet have Penals, USF have Bazookas and UKF have Piats while OKW only have Sturmpioneers which if compared to Penals (or any other faction) are quite garbage. I wouldn't mind seeing PZB 39's on Volksgrenadiers as a Penal PTRS alternative or an additional Panzershrek upgrade on Sturmpioneers.
![avatar of Protos Angelus](/images/avatars/m20.png?updated=1414778115)
Posts: 1515
Agreed that the Penals are fine however considering that Vipper is usually biased and is basically trolling at this point with how he wants to nerf every single allied unit, I think his take on the argument is flawed but he would have some merit to his argument if he were to reframe the argument.
Vipper is obviously biased towards OKW which lack a decent non doctrinal AT Squad. If he were to make that case instead of spewing Nerf all the allied things then he would have a valid argument to make.
Whermacht have Panzer Grenadiers, Soviet have Penals, USF have Bazookas and UKF have Piats while OKW only have Sturmpioneers which if compared to Penals (or any other faction) are quite garbage. I wouldn't mind seeing PZB 39's on Volksgrenadiers as a Penal PTRS alternative or an additional Panzershrek upgrade on Sturmpioneers.
Additional shreck on sturms would not be bad, but then the weapon swaps would need taking look at. With the close range DPS they have and survivability, swapping 2xshrecks and sweepers could be problematic, especially in larger modes where there are usually 2x sturmpio openings
![avatar of SkysTheLimit](/images/avatars/rear_echelons.png?updated=1440837436)
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
How many people have to say that t1/Penal are NOT ok before redesign?
You didn't answer my first question and you're deflecting from the 2nd one. Are you really incapable of understanding how a full redesign is less "simple" then just keeping them as is?
You are literally one of the only people advocating for a full redesign. And you have no good argument as to why, literally none at all. You just keep repeating "simply need redesign"
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You didn't answer my first question and you're deflecting from the 2nd one. Are you really incapable of understanding how a full redesign is less "simple" then just keeping them as is?
You are literally one of the only people advocating for a full redesign. And you have no good argument as to why, literally none at all. You just keep repeating "simply need redesign"
There are many player even top player that do not agree with current Penal/T1 design.
Here is GiaA
here is elchino7
now pls stop pretending as if I am the only one that says Penal/t1 is badly designed.
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