Infantry combat

You do realize what you're asking for here rewards ignoring cover and blobbing?

The game already does that.

Are you serious? Do you want me to make a list of how many buffs infatry weapon have received?

How about doubling the DPS of SVT?
How about giving ST44 to VGs?
How about buffing the DPS of Assault grenadier MP40?
How about buffing PPsh?
How about buffing G43?
How about making PG/Ober available earlier?

SVTs and Volks STG changes were over 4 years ago. I said the past 2-3 years. You're listing the handful of tweaks that I specifically mentioned. These tweaks are minor anyway, we're talking about 1-2 DPS increases at specific ranges here. Earlier PG/Obers have nothing to do with the raw TTK. And there have also been plenty of nerfs to DPS and buffs to durability of other units.

There has been no global TTK increase, period. The majority of weapons/units have not been touched (in terms of noticeable TTK increases) over the past 2-3 years. Unlike Crecer claimed to "have noticed over the past few patches". In fact I'd ague that in general the TTK has gone down a bit, because many high RNG weapon profiles have been replaced with more predictable versions.

Noone actually is quoting stats and numbers here.

I still highly doubt, that the game has become more lethal.

A lot of weapons has been moved from 1 hit killers with a lot of rng to constant damage over time.

The game has become more predictable. Thats all.

SVTs and Volks STG changes were over 4 years ago. I said the past 2-3 years. You're listing the handful of tweaks that I specifically mentioned. These tweaks are minor anyway, we're talking about 1-2 DPS increases at specific ranges here. Earlier PG/Obers have nothing to do with the raw TTK. And there have also been plenty of nerfs to DPS and buffs to durability of other units.

So the fact that Obers and PG face infatry of lower vet with lower vet bonuses has not to do with how fast they can kill those infantries? seriously?

The fact is that stronger units/weapon have become available earlier, are cheaper to buy/reiforce and that does effect TTK because unit have bigger target size.

There has been no global TTK increase, period. The majority of weapons/units have not been touched (in terms of noticeable TTK increases) over the past 2-3 years. Unlike Crecer claimed to "have noticed over the past few patches". In fact I'd ague that in general the TTK has gone down a bit, because many high RNG weapon profiles have been replaced with more predictable versions.

I have never said that I agree with claim that "have noticed over the past few patches" and I actually I do not. The power creep has been going but it is not something that happened recently.

What I have said is that increasing lethality makes the game more arcade not less.

So pls if you want to respond to Cracer's claim, I suggest you quote him and not me.

well, would be an interesting idea to see what would happen if all infantry DMG/ROF was reduced by 20% or so.

would be welcome by some people, me included

Huh? This would totally destroy any sort of balance we have at the moment.

So the fact that Obers and PG face infatry of lower vet with lower vet bonuses has not to do with how fast they can kill those infantries? seriously?

Raw TTK is raw TTK. Or do you also want to compare vet 3 units to fresh vet 0 replacements? Not to mention the fact that their new timing is only relevant for a short window, up until their foes reach the specific vet or upgrade level these foes had at their old timing, after which the old TTK values kick in again because those never changed. It makes no sense including timing into a TTK comparison. Timing of a unit has to do with their efficiency. It's irrelevant when comparing raw TTK, and there would be way too many variables anyway if you'd include it.

Raw TTK is raw TTK. Or do you also want to compare vet 3 units to fresh vet 0 replacements? Not to mention the fact that their new timing is only relevant for a short window, up until their foes reach the specific vet or upgrade level these foes had at their old timing, after which the old TTK values kick in again because those never changed. It makes no sense including timing into a TTK comparison. Timing of a unit has to do with their efficiency. It's irrelevant when comparing raw TTK, and there would be way too many variables anyway if you'd include it.

On the contrary TTK has everything to do with timing.

An LMG-42 or BAR available from at minute 0 would completely changes small arm fights and TTK.

It like saying that TTK for 5 minute Sherman facing 222 and minute 15 Sherman facing PzIV is the same...

Huh? This would totally destroy any sort of balance we have at the moment.

It was just a thought

I noticed that in the latest versions of the game, the infantry is simply crazy melting other infantry. If you look at the versions of several years ago, there is no such thing. I think need to slightly slow down the pace of the game and either slightly reduce the damage for all infantry, or it can reduce accuracy or some other options.

Which version?
People forget how lethality was back in 2013, 2014/2015.

2013: Low fire arms lethality, high lethality in everything else.

Cover didn't matter at all, support weapon spam was a thing. Games generally ended in the first minutes with LV rushes or call in spams.

2014: High lethality on everything.

We are not even close to post WFA/UKF infantry lethality. And if anything certain units have become more beefy with vet (which reduces lethality).

Double weapon been the norm (1919s, G43 + LMG42) or elite units been stronger. Pre nerf Shocks, that time they buffed PTRS for Guards, Paras, pre nerf Rangers, Obers, old design Falls/PF, etc.

If anything i would say burst was the norm, not necessarily high or low TTK. Because pre rework Volks were not necessarily high dps units (although they had way higher vet values which would put them way above current Volks with no STG) but the PSchreck doubled as an AI weapon.

Noone actually is quoting stats and numbers here.

I still highly doubt, that the game has become more lethal.

A lot of weapons has been moved from 1 hit killers with a lot of rng to constant damage over time.

The game has become more predictable. Thats all.

Exactly.

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I mean, I might argue that heavy cover -> heavy cover engagements being very slow could actually make the game more strategic. It would further incentivise the use of things such as Mortars, flamethrowers, assault teams advancing through smoke, and other specialised tools, in order to push combat in your favour.

Very strong cover bonuses combined with otherwise very high damage while out of cover might actually make blobbing less effective.

I'd agree that just outright reducing damage would be an abysmal idea, but I do think that making cover even stronger while making units absolutely melt outside of it might be interesting to consider.

That's a possibility but it's far too great of a change. Specially with how eecky we still are with sandbags and late game abundant light cover situation. Not to mention map balance and garrisons.

The game already does that.

Does it need even more tho?

We are talking about what happen when one increases lethality and that is exactly what happens.

Not if they are going to die while moving to cover. This exactly what was happening while trying to attack IS section in cover. They would drop an enemy model on approach and the fight would be over before it began.

part of this i think is the absolute throwing oujt of any sort of "plan" for infantry combat.

back in EFA units had roles.
those with utility were not the best at fighting,
those with centralized DPS could use it on the move.
those designed to fight did that alone
taking losses meant losing DPS on high DPS squads like pgrens or shocks.
units good at range were only good on defense
units good up close had to GET there
durable units outlasted not out fought

there were a few unicorns like guards, though heavily armed and long range, they came with their own drawbacks of low mobility and high investment. per man they also only had a target size of 1

all that "this or that" trade off and well thought out shit is completely gone.

we have commandos with:
5 men with 0.72 target size
cover to cover camo,
ambush bonus,
bundled nade,
demo charge,
light smoke nade that gives target size bonus
self heal with vet
escape smoke with vet to prevent wipes
the ability to double arm piats or FOTM elite brens
a glider that they can reinforce off of
390 mp

or pgrens with:
4 men with 0.8 target size
bundled nade
can get shreks
bonus near vehicles with vet
340mp

power creep done power crept and EFA is left behind.

fuck, look at tommies and grens! tommies are better by every metric except the snare and somehow still get to be cheaper per head when reinforcing out the gate. they are pit to beat grens in an equal fight AND bleed less from equal losses....

theres no plan anymore, no direction, no rules or baselines. no trade offs. every unit is supposed to be able to carry the game on its back now from flushing the enemy out up close to chasing them down on retreat.

the "tactical" part was washed away when "do it all efficiently" became the shiny new thing and units with jobs became a weakness.

Snip

You're basically just pointing out UKF crutches, not issues with WFA. Yea, UKF is weird and has weird stuff to make up for massive holes in its design. Not having a snare on a mainline is a Big Friggen Deal. Have you played UKF in small games recently? The LV play is brutal pre-AEC.

EFA is still using the systems you described, and EFA is STILL clearly the best 1v1 factions, with parity in team games. 7 man Scripts are HUGELY durable outlasters and that's post-UKF release. The patch team leaned INTO that design, and it continues to be strong.

UKF is literally the worst possible example for tactical vs 'do it all efficiently'. Literally everything they have is incredibly specialized, except for the Comet and Cromwell, to the detriment of UKF. Every other army gets a general purpose mainline that can hold/snare. UKF has to get 2 separate units to do that, with until next patch the longest cooldown snare. You want tactical specialized units? Play UKF.

'Do it all efficiently' is the name of the game for Axis armor, that why its really good. The P4 does all jobs fantastic, with no downsides outside of not being heavier. The Panther does all jobs acceptable, and forces highly specialized AT units. Tiger is just a super P4, and is good because of it.

Infantry combat is fine and varied, if a bit short for long retreat maps where a single skirmish can really impact the early game.

That's a possibility but it's far too great of a change. Specially with how eecky we still are with sandbags and late game abundant light cover situation. Not to mention map balance and garrisons.

I'd unfortunately be inclined to agree with you. Although I think it would be a pretty positive change, it's something that would take a massive amount of work, which the balans teem simply don't have the resources for.

I think Sandbags have become less of an issue as of late, with the combination of increased build times, and much more reliable wire meaning it is easier to deny... But I definitely agree that the abundance of yellow cover in the lategame is a major issue, even with the current strength of cover.

I wonder if Red Cover could just be repurposed as a new form of "positive" cover? It's getting rarer and rarer on competitive maps, and considered to be a "bad mechanic" by some, and would give the opportunity to make things like craters weaker than "normal" yellow cover.

I suppose this is much too large of a change too though.

leave the game as it is

Its actually funny how speaking of blobing ppl seem to forget that vCoH (with all it problems) managed to be much more punishing for ppl who blob.

Staring from the fact that inderect fire like mortars gave suppresion, LMGs had suppresion, pintles had suppresion.

In CoH2 its a) You have mass advantage b) You have just stronger inf. Have one of those and you can blob to no-end and it will effective.

All this race to "no-bullshit-wipes" while was wellcomed to some degree, just benifited blobing. Sure, loosing one squad to a demo-charge is frustrating for sure, but loosing blob to a demo-charge is a bad play which teaches you that blobing is bad.

Lowering lethality more or less fixed problem of RNG squad wipes but at the same time, nothing was brought to keep blobing less attractive to do.

Does it need even more tho?

Does that even make a difference in the slightest???

Its actually funny how speaking of blobing ppl seem to forget that vCoH (with all it problems) managed to be much more punishing for ppl who blob.

Staring from the fact that inderect fire like mortars gave suppresion, LMGs had suppresion, pintles had suppresion.

In CoH2 its a) You have mass advantage b) You have just stronger inf. Have one of those and you can blob to no-end and it will effective.

All this race to "no-bullshit-wipes" while was wellcomed to some degree, just benifited blobing. Sure, loosing one squad to a demo-charge is frustrating for sure, but loosing blob to a demo-charge is a bad play which teaches you that blobing is bad.

Lowering lethality more or less fixed problem of RNG squad wipes but at the same time, nothing was brought to keep blobing less attractive to do.

Well CoH2 is super risk free in every department. Capping has no risk, teching has no risk I don't think people would appreciate risks in coh2 at this late of a stage.

Well CoH2 is super risk free in every department. Capping has no risk, teching has no risk I don't think people would appreciate risks in coh2 at this late of a stage.

Well its not nessery risk problem, its a common sence problem. For instance, previously coh2 had a very lethal explosives, be it nades\mines\mortar\arty everything pottentually could have deliver lucky RNG wipe.

Everything was tonned down, with an aurgument that it punished not only idiotic play, but more often then not punished normal play just because you had a bad RNG roll (same aurgument used against abandon critical). And this indeed was and still is a valid aurgment.

But the problem is, while mentioned mechanics indeed were questinable, they still acted somewhat as a soft counter to idiotic play aswell.

As an example we can look at arty units. Ppl complained about it for ages especially in teamgames and always got the same responce "Teamgames were and always will be an arty fest".
At the same time simple friendly fire mechanic was never introduced, because of "teamkilling", while teamkillers are able to just destoy your base anyway, ruining your game just as if there was a friendly fire.
This leads to cali\katy\stuka\Werfer delivering 10 hot loads while friendly blobs just stay inside the arty zone taking 0 damage, while enemy is taking full damage.

Or lets say mortars. Realistically if your squad is hit by them during attack\deffence you most likely will have to retreat it anyway, so why not give mortars suppresion like in vCoH? It will punish blobers heavily, while objectively it wont affect single squads anyway, since as I said after direct hit you will have to retreat them anyway. But we have mortars, which can barrage on top of your own troops dealing 0 damage to them, while when it comes to blobs they are effectively can just bleed them with lucky hits sometimes, but not stop them.

Hell, even armor gameplay was done better in vCoH. Even if your tank\AT gun hit didnt penetrate it still dealt cheap deflection damage, meaning that even Sheman vs KT front to front could have done at least some damage to it, while in CoH2 we have flat penetration or no penetration, meaning that your PIV can either penetrate churchill 5 times in a row with lucky RNG or do absolutely nothing to it.

Thats imo the main problem with coh2 balance and dev team, instead of thinking out of the box how to address gameplay problems we are left with stats masturbation buffing and nerfing same units from patch to patch and when it fails we have new ability\upgrade which will requare multiple patches anyway to ajust.

And again imo, thats why CoH2 lost its vibe a lot of ppl liked. Not because game has less BS or less OP units or fun units.
Its because for past few years road to balance was achieved using raw stats and abilities, not mechanics, thats why a lot of ppl say that game lost its assymetry and everything feels like its mirrored units just with different stats.
While in vCoH balance was achieved (at least US vs Wehr) using mechanics not stats.

...

Correcting some mistakes.

Well... in terms of suppression been given to small indirect fire, it was already tested and extremely disliked by the whole community and deems as one of the biggest mistakes done by Relic balance team.

It was applied to both the ISG and the Pack Howie and the game revolve around spamming 2/3 of them and just seeing how they would suppress and pinned everything from distance.


A single shell hitting a single model on the distance won't force you to retreat that squad. Been suppressed and unable to move or fight back will do so. And it's the same problem with "demos". It does not discrupt blobbers in any way higher than every single alone infantry squad.

And applying it to barrage only doesn't work as well, cause blobs tend to be mobile (although at least it would be more bearable since it would at least require player input)


In regards to friendly fire, that's a thing i have always asked myself as to why it was at least not standardised so they all share similar values for equal weapon categories. We have friendly fire, but it goes from trivial to deadly and there has never been a patch which fixes it.

Correcting some mistakes.

Well... in terms of suppression been given to small indirect fire, it was already tested and extremely disliked by the whole community and deems as one of the biggest mistakes done by Relic balance team.

It was applied to both the ISG and the Pack Howie and the game revolve around spamming 2/3 of them and just seeing how they would suppress and pinned everything from distance.

However, both ISG and Pack Howie was notoriously OP with their autofire model/squad wiping capabilities compared to mortars on top of having the suppression. Less damage on mortars with added suppression would be 10/10 better even this day since mortars can still get lucky wipes today yet being mildly effective against blobs.