Infantry combat
7 Jun 2021, 07:49 AM
#1
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
I noticed that in the latest versions of the game, the infantry is simply crazy melting other infantry. If you look at the versions of several years ago, there is no such thing. I think need to slightly slow down the pace of the game and either slightly reduce the damage for all infantry, or it can reduce accuracy or some other options.
7 Jun 2021, 10:03 AM
#2
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You do realize what you're asking for here rewards ignoring cover and blobbing?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Jun 2021, 13:25 PM
#3
Posts: 281
sound like a unnecessary indirect buff to sniper, mgs and team weapons in general. thats a no from me
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7 Jun 2021, 14:11 PM
#4
Posts: 219
maybe allow for slow, medium or fast in game settings when playing multiplayer? if things are going too fast for you?
lamented the speed change in SC2
lamented the speed change in SC2
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
7 Jun 2021, 14:14 PM
#5
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
maybe allow for slow, medium or fast in game settings when playing multiplayer? if things are going too fast for you?
lamented the speed change in SC2
The fact that the infantry is simply melting other infantry is not normal. In all the years of the game, this was not.
7 Jun 2021, 14:19 PM
#6
Posts: 268
IMo it is the opposite. I remember times, when a mortar could wipe whole squads with one shell. Over time coh2 became more arcady and less deadly.
7 Jun 2021, 14:19 PM
#7
Posts: 219
well, would be an interesting idea to see what would happen if all infantry DMG/ROF was reduced by 20% or so.
would be welcome by some people, me included
would be welcome by some people, me included
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
7 Jun 2021, 14:49 PM
#8
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
IMo it is the opposite. I remember times, when a mortar could wipe whole squads with one shell. Over time coh2 became more arcady and less deadly.
Actually it is the other way round. The more deadly the weapon less time one has to react and use cover/other advantage so the game becomes more arcade and less strategic.
7 Jun 2021, 14:59 PM
#9
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
The more deadly the weapon less time one has to react and use cover/other advantage so the game becomes more arcade and less strategic.
Ah yes, nothing more strategic than heavy cover versus heavy cover fights lasting up to literal minutes or infantry charging over open ground and barely taking any damage. It is not the other way around, fast TTK forces people to carefully plan their manoeuvres and positioning to either maximise the use of cover or to minimalize the damage on approach. If TTK was low, you could just blob and straight up overrun everything.
7 Jun 2021, 15:04 PM
#10
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
Ah yes, nothing more strategic than heavy cover versus heavy cover fights lasting up to literal minutes or infantry charging over open ground and barely taking any damage. It is not the other way around, fast TTK forces people to carefully plan their manoeuvres and positioning to either maximise the use of cover or to minimalize the damage on approach. If TTK was low, you could just blob and straight up overrun everything.
I have to ask a question. Are you playing this game or just numbers? Because entering the game now you can see a typical picture of a blob that walks and melts everything around.
7 Jun 2021, 15:10 PM
#11
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I have to ask a question. Are you playing this game or just numbers? Because entering the game now you can see a typical picture of a blob that walks and melts everything around.
I play high level teamgames where good players usually know how to punish blobs, so they are not really an issue. Still, blobs can always be effective. Lowering TTK would not weaken them though, it would just make them even stronger, because it would make using cover against them less effective.
7 Jun 2021, 15:15 PM
#12
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
I play high level teamgames where good players usually know how to punish blobs, so they are not really an issue. Still, blobs can always be effective. Lowering TTK would not weaken them though, it would just make them even stronger, because it would make using cover against them less effective.
CoH 2 is not a shooter. In the shooter, I'm favoring the fast TTK because it's your reaction speed and different controls. CoH2 is a strategy and it should have a lot more strategy and not be a piano simulator and punish by melting everything and everything if a little distracted. Infantry shouldn't die instantly.
7 Jun 2021, 15:16 PM
#13
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Ah yes, nothing more strategic than heavy cover versus heavy cover fights lasting up to literal minutes or infantry charging over open ground and barely taking any damage.
I was responding to argument that lower lethality makes the game more arcade.
In what you describe still the player with superior position or move would have a better chance of wining.
It is not the other way around, fast TTK forces people to carefully plan their manoeuvres and positioning to either maximise the use of cover or to minimalize the damage on approach. If TTK was low, you could just blob and straight up overrun everything.
There is very little reason plan anything carefully if the fight is going to last second since micro becomes more important that than macro and even the most carefully plant attack can fail due to a split second event.
In addition the chance of coming back from even the slightest disadvantage are lower.
Now between fights that last minutes and unit that disappear in second there is middle ground.
7 Jun 2021, 15:23 PM
#14
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Actually it is the other way round. The more deadly the weapon less time one has to react and use cover/other advantage so the game becomes more arcade and less strategic.
As per usual, there is a sweet spot. TTK must be short enough to be punished for mistakes before you can react, while being long enough to even react at all.
Games that have very short TTKs are usually designed with dispensable units (like Supreme Commander and the AoE series), which is obviously not the case for Coh2. Still, the whole cover and retreat system as well as the scale of the game circle around punishing bad unit positioning on a micro level. If you keep increasing the TTK you will almost remove some of CoH2's core mechanics at some point.
7 Jun 2021, 15:29 PM
#15
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
As per usual, there is a sweet spot. TTK must be short enough to be punished for mistakes before you can react, while being long enough to even react at all.
Games that have very short TTKs are usually designed with dispensable units (like Supreme Commander and the AoE series), which is obviously not the case for Coh2. Still, the whole cover and retreat system as well as the scale of the game circle around punishing bad unit positioning on a micro level. If you keep increasing the TTK you will almost remove some of CoH2's core mechanics at some point.
Exactly.
In other game the "strategy" of the game has more do with economy management and less with fights where the bigger blob wins.
COH2 is more about fight and less about economy. Relic spend years in finding the "sweet spot" for infatry fights. For some unknown reason patch after patch, the lethality of units is being increased while more powerful unit become available earlier resulting in continues power creep.
7 Jun 2021, 15:35 PM
#16
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
I noticed that in the latest versions of the game, the infantry is simply crazy melting other infantry. If you look at the versions of several years ago, there is no such thing. I think need to slightly slow down the pace of the game and either slightly reduce the damage for all infantry, or it can reduce accuracy or some other options.
What do you mean "latest versions of the games" there hasn't been any significant changes to infantry combat outside of typical balance tweaks and none of those changes were aimed at increasing lethality to a large degree. If anything a lot of changes were aimed at changing units to be more consistent damage and less frustrating OHKs. What changes do you think made things too lethal? Otherwise this just comes off as "my reaction times are too slow, please nerf".
7 Jun 2021, 15:39 PM
#17
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
What do you mean "latest versions of the games" there hasn't been any significant changes to infantry combat outside of typical balance tweaks and none of those changes were aimed at increasing lethality to a large degree. If anything a lot of changes were aimed at changing units to be more consistent damage and less frustrating OHKs. What changes do you think made things too lethal? Otherwise this just comes off as "my reaction times are too slow, please nerf".
When I looked at the rank yesterday, there was something about 100 places in 3 against 3. And for all the time playing with friends, we were always in the 50-100 best. So this is clearly not the problem of my reaction. I'm not a number guy. I say what I see and feel and I see that the infantry is simply melting other infantry.
7 Jun 2021, 15:44 PM
#18
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
There is very little reason plan anything carefully if the fight is going to last second since micro becomes more important that than macro and even the most carefully plant attack can fail due to a split second event
Hyperbole much? Infantry fights do not last mere seconds. Of course there is a reason to plan attacks carefully if your infantry won't survive for too long outside of cover. It makes flanking, moving from cover to cover, covering fire, using smoke or other abilities, etc. mandatory rather than just charging straight in. That is what makes the game tactical.
Now between fights that last minutes and unit that disappear in second there is middle ground.
CoH2 already has that middle ground. Infantry fights generally last long enough to reward cover and still allow for proper assaults, while punishing bad positioning or just getting caught out of position. And not because squads out of cover get melted in seconds, but because they'll usually drop one or two models before recovering so that they can no longer win that fight.
I say what I see and feel and I see that the infantry is simply melting other infantry.
Absolutely nothing changed in infantry TTK over the past 2-3 years, except for a handful of specific units that had their DPS or durability individually tweaked slightly.
7 Jun 2021, 16:21 PM
#19
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Hyperbole much? Infantry fights do not last mere seconds.
We are talking about what happen when one increases lethality and that is exactly what happens.
Not if they are going to die while moving to cover. This exactly what was happening while trying to attack IS section in cover. They would drop an enemy model on approach and the fight would be over before it began.
Of course there is a reason to plan attacks carefully if your infantry won't survive for too long outside of cover. It makes flanking, moving from cover to cover, covering fire, using smoke or other abilities, etc. mandatory rather than just charging straight in. That is what makes the game tactical.
CoH2 already has that middle ground. Infantry fights generally last long enough to reward cover and still allow for proper assaults, while punishing bad positioning or just getting caught out of position. And not because squads out of cover get melted in seconds, but because they'll usually drop one or two models before recovering so that they can no longer win that fight.
Not really it was in a middle ground when Relic left the game but the lethality of units has been increased and timing of powerful has become earlier. I sort there has been a power creep.
There are many cases where one can kill full HP squads even when they retreat at first sight.
Absolutely nothing changed in infantry TTK over the past 2-3 years, except for a handful of specific units that had their DPS or durability individually tweaked slightly.
Are you serious? Do you want me to make a list of how many buffs infatry weapon have received?
How about doubling the DPS of SVT?
How about giving ST44 to VGs?
How about buffing the DPS of Assault grenadier MP40?
How about buffing PPsh?
How about buffing G43?
How about making PG/Ober available earlier?
7 Jun 2021, 16:31 PM
#20
Posts: 1594
\
Ah yes, nothing more strategic than heavy cover versus heavy cover fights lasting up to literal minutes or infantry charging over open ground and barely taking any damage. It is not the other way around, fast TTK forces people to carefully plan their manoeuvres and positioning to either maximise the use of cover or to minimalize the damage on approach. If TTK was low, you could just blob and straight up overrun everything.
I mean, I might argue that heavy cover -> heavy cover engagements being very slow could actually make the game more strategic. It would further incentivise the use of things such as Mortars, flamethrowers, assault teams advancing through smoke, and other specialised tools, in order to push combat in your favour.
Very strong cover bonuses combined with otherwise very high damage while out of cover might actually make blobbing less effective.
I'd agree that just outright reducing damage would be an abysmal idea, but I do think that making cover even stronger while making units absolutely melt outside of it might be interesting to consider.
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