Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

So if you look at the in this link the Scavenge commander is bottom three in commanders taken in loadouts in every single game mode. Scavenge is just lackluster in what it brings and has a unsynergetic set of abilities (and several of them are very meh). Infiltration Grenades and Jaeger Infantry seem to be a more aggressive sets of abilities but then the buffed scavenge and 105mm artillery are more based around an economic plan. Then the ostwind struggles to find a real home due to the rest of the commander being so meh.

Here's some ideas
Ostwind ---> Replace with captured T-34-76
Thorough Scavenge ---> Buff
Infiltration Tactics ---> Something with munitions like a recon pass or light artillery barrage
Jaeger Light Infantry Squad
105mm Artillery Strike

A t-34 fits extremely well with the theme of the doctrine, infiltration tactics being so cheap doesn't really work here, and thorough scavenge should be improved further to make it more useful. I would maybe speed up the salvage so it's easier to pull off.
Also the T-34-76 would be the same stat wise as a Soviets T-34-76 except with 5 vet levels and maybe it doesn't get the ram. It would cost the same and come at the same timing as Ostwind and Hetzer.

I also think since Ostwind would be cut if this was done the ostwind should be moved to Luftwaffe Ground Forces by replacing the Heavy Fortifications. It fits better in that aggressive doctrine rather than the defensively natured heavy fort stuff.

Beyond that Breakthrough Doctrine is also the most popular commander in team games and it could be considered to remove Assault Artillery from the doctrine and put it into a different less effective doctrine. Breakthrough has a super heavy TD alongside some other good abilities it really doesn't need also a potent heavy artillery call in. That could potentially help some other doctrine a lot.

...

I would also like to see resources vehicles in Scavenger since it fits the theme, an opel or 223 with less pop/fuel cost and less fighting capabilities or some other implementation maybe with mechanisms that steal resources from enemy sectors.

Wouldn't it make more sense if Volksgrenadiere used molotovs instead of incendiary grenades? I've read molotovs were much more common and widely used by Axis forces. However I know this game is more about balance and immersion than realism

Feuersturm Doctrine
280mm Rocket Barrage
The barrage has already had an AOE penetration of 160 now and can destroy howitzers 9 of 10 times. But with the changes in beta (penetration from 0 to 60&AOE penetration to 40), it destroys howizers only 7 of 10 times according to my testing (since howizers have an armour of 70). This would make the ability less reliable actually. Maybe the penetration value should be adjusted to 70. (If 70 proves to be reliable against howitzers.)


Special Operations
Radio Silence
Speed Boost now disabled in combat and all players will be warned when activated. When the infantry meets enemy even in the furthest range, it will shoot, and when it shoots, the speed boost get disabled. So what is the purpose of using such an expensive radio silence in this beta? To save some time from base to the frontline? Not to mention that its CD, cost&CP requirement also get nerfed. Together with the changes to Artillery Flares, this commander becomes fairly useless until late game when command panther arrives.

Previously, it is a commander which only shines in right hands. Low-skill players cannot grasp the timing of radio silence, or rarely use it. Radio silence in early games and Artillery Flares really provides the commander the initiative and flexibility, which encourage agressive moves, rather than just wait for the command panther. I really hope that at least the speed boost would not be disabled.

I would be delighted if you could take these into consideration. Thank you.

Some more ideas:

Breakthrough Doctrine
Assault Artillery ---> Assault Package
This commander is the most picked in larger team games and has a similar issue to the ISU152 and Elefant commanders by combining a strong off map with a heavy TD. Removing this imo just makes sense to keep with that theme. The Assault Package fits thematically but could be really any ability that isn't a strong off map.

Fortifications Doctrine
Zeroing Artillery —-> Assault Artillery (rename)
The possibly homeless Assault Artillery has proven to be a powerful off map and could be a possible replacement to the very difficult to use zeroing artillery. Requiring a constant line of sight makes zeroing artillery overall less effective.

Grand Offensive Doctrine
Tiger Tank ---> Renamed to Command Tiger Tank
Simply rename the Tiger Tank to better represent what it actually is the commander loadout.

Luftwaffe Ground Forces
Heavy Fortifications ---> Anti Air Defences. Contains Flak emplacements and Ostwind (2 CP).
Heavy Fortifications doesn't fit well with this commander. Taking the Flaks and combining it with the Ostwind, which fits well in this commander, should overall be a more thematic and stronger bundle.

Scavenge Doctrine
Ostwind ---> Captured T-34-76
Thorough Scavenge ---> Buffed by being faster than normal salvage
Infiltration Tactics ---> Sdkfz 221
Talked about this before so will mostly tldr it. The T-34-76 is the same as the soviet version but with the removal of ram and the ability to vet to 5. It would have the same timing as the ostwind and hetzer which would give this doctrine a very unique playstyle by having a medium tank that comes much sooner than the normal OKW medium. The buff to the scavenge would make it easier to pull off. You could also just the ability give a less punishing while being used. Finally the Infiltration Tactics doesn't fit well within the commander so replacing with the 221 gives an early vehicle that also can be converted to further boost income.

Special Operations
Radio Silence ---> Reworked to give all units cautious movement (enemies need to be closer to reveal) and a small speed boost out of combat. Cheap cost and quick cooldown.
Radio Silence is a highly controversial ability still as it can either have a limited impact or be devastating. This rework tries to make it not so reliant on the player to be highly effective by overall letting troops get close before being revealed.

Some more ideas:

Breakthrough Doctrine
Assault Artillery ---> Assault Package
This commander is the most picked in larger team games and has a similar issue to the ISU152 and Elefant commanders by combining a strong off map with a heavy TD. Removing this imo just makes sense to keep with that theme. The Assault Package fits thematically but could be really any ability that isn't a strong off map.

Fortifications Doctrine
Zeroing Artillery —-> Assault Artillery (rename)
The possibly homeless Assault Artillery has proven to be a powerful off map and could be a possible replacement to the very difficult to use zeroing artillery. Requiring a constant line of sight makes zeroing artillery overall less effective.

Grand Offensive Doctrine
Tiger Tank ---> Renamed to Command Tiger Tank
Simply rename the Tiger Tank to better represent what it actually is the commander loadout.

Luftwaffe Ground Forces

Would be interesting to see the T34 with the armored skirts from the All Units mod for Germany.
Heavy Fortifications ---> Anti Air Defences. Contains Flak emplacements and Ostwind (2 CP).
Heavy Fortifications doesn't fit well with this commander. Taking the Flaks and combining it with the Ostwind, which fits well in this commander, should overall be a more thematic and stronger bundle.

Scavenge Doctrine
Ostwind ---> Captured T-34-76
Thorough Scavenge ---> Buffed by being faster than normal salvage
Infiltration Tactics ---> Sdkfz 221
Talked about this before so will mostly tldr it. The T-34-76 is the same as the soviet version but with the removal of ram and the ability to vet to 5. It would have the same timing as the ostwind and hetzer which would give this doctrine a very unique playstyle by having a medium tank that comes much sooner than the normal OKW medium. The buff to the scavenge would make it easier to pull off. You could also just the ability give a less punishing while being used. Finally the Infiltration Tactics doesn't fit well within the commander so replacing with the 221 gives an early vehicle that also can be converted to further boost income.

Special Operations
Radio Silence ---> Reworked to give all units cautious movement (enemies need to be closer to reveal) and a small speed boost out of combat. Cheap cost and quick cooldown.
Radio Silence is a highly controversial ability still as it can either have a limited impact or be devastating. This rework tries to make it not so reliant on the player to be highly effective by overall letting troops get close before being revealed.

Would be interesting the see the T34 with the armored skirts from the All Units mod for Germany.

Actually scavange arent that bad over-all, just thorough salvage arent worth a slot. It should just be paired with something, preferably some sort of an upgrade for Volks.

Actually scavange arent that bad over-all, just thorough salvage arent worth a slot. It should just be paired with something, preferably some sort of an upgrade for Volks.

It is the least picked commander across most modes.

It is the least picked commander across most modes.

Well it doesnt nessesery mean its bad. Its not CAS like commander, its just other commanders are much more usefull and ostwind alone arent worth picking it for. Thats why if it was the second commander (out-side of feuersturm) which provided some sort of an upgrade to volks it might become more popular.

Well it doesnt nessesery mean its bad. Its not CAS like commander, its just other commanders are much more usefull and ostwind alone arent worth picking it for. Thats why if it was the second commander (out-side of feuersturm) which provided some sort of an upgrade to volks it might become more popular.

When a commander score bottom places in 3 modes and third worse only in 1 (commander that scored lower are commander that are simply not designed to 1vs1) it means that inferior to other commanders.

Actually scavange arent that bad over-all, just thorough salvage arent worth a slot. It should just be paired with something, preferably some sort of an upgrade for Volks.

Imo scavenge suffers from being torn between different themes that makes it just a grouping of some ok abilities. Thorough Salvage and the 105mm Barrage I think are obviously meant to be core part of the doctrine by letting you having an incredibly devastating barrage with the extra munitions gained. Then you have infiltration tactics which I think is the most questionable ability because this doctrine doesn't seem like it is meant to be an aggressive, in your face commander that could utilize this the well. Then you have the JLI and Ostwind which are fine on their own but also don't offer anything super amazing either. Overwatch I would say is overall the more potent commander for JLI and although this is the only doctrine with Ostwind it just isn't that strong a unit to be worth playing a commander for.

I think a larger rework would be needed to really drag this commander up and at least the ideas would put out give it a more unique angle to work from and imo would gel better as a doctrine.

When a commander score bottom places in 3 modes and third worse only in 1 (commander that scored lower are commander that are simply not designed to 1vs1) it means that inferior to other commanders.

Well duh, its inferior, but inferior why? Because abilities are bad\UP or because its badly designed or because in comparison to other commanders it gives you much less.

If commander is not picked, it doesnt mean they all suffer from the same problem.

It is the least picked commander across most modes.

Its an overshadowed commander not necessarily a weak one. One of the main draws of the commander also comes in a commander with arty and Goliaths...
Take JLI out of that commander and suddenly scavenge has something great that isn't available elsewhere.

It is the least picked commander across most modes.

It's mostly because Overwatch is a million times better for team games with howitzer and probably the best loiter in the game in addition to JLI. I don't think any buffs to Scavenge will ever change that but it's a fine 1v1 Doc with the improved Ostwind timing and it's not like Infiltration Nades and Off Map are bad at all.

and Off Map are bad at all.

Not that it's bad, but I would totally be for changing the offmap mechanics of munition stockpile to give this barrage some consistency

It's mostly because Overwatch is a million times better for team games with howitzer and probably the best loiter in the game in addition to JLI. I don't think any buffs to Scavenge will ever change that but it's a fine 1v1 Doc with the improved Ostwind timing and it's not like Infiltration Nades and Off Map are bad at all.

If that was the cases it would be picked in 1vs1 yet it third from the bottom only behind JT/Fortification both of which are terrible for 1vs1.

Considering that Panzerfusilier Regiments were historically just renamed Panzergrenadier Regiments in certain divisions such as the Panzergrenadier Division Grossdeutschland, Feldherrnhalle and others, why not just turn them into mechanized utility infantry or something instead of volks replacements?

Stuff like being able to repair only vehicles, the same combat boost as the Ost Panzergrenadiers when they're near vehicles, hell maybe they could even come in a 251 Halftrack as a combat group, there are voicelines for it for both the announcer and the infantry units themselves about loading and unloading from transports.

This is a good suggestion and would help alleviate Sturmpioneers from repair duties, it is true that Panzerfusiliers are just Panzergrenadiers with a fancy title. I was actually going to suggest dismounted Panzer Crews added as a repair-only unit for a doctrine, since Germany had more tank crews than tanks late in the war.

Wouldn't it make more sense if Volksgrenadiere used molotovs instead of incendiary grenades? I've read molotovs were much more common and widely used by Axis forces. However I know this game is more about balance and immersion than realism

It would, especially because the Incendiary Grenade is completely fictional. There is no such thing as an Incendiary Stielhandgranate, the devs made it up same as the Stun Stielhandgranate used by Sturmpioneers.

I'd like to see the 3rd rework of JLI like giving them another upgrade that grants them something like STG44s and a grenade like the old OST Stormtroopers. So in the end it is left to player to choose between a long range anti-sniper/support infantry and an STG44 wielding camouflaging ambush squad.

So at least that gives some more flavor to Scavenge commander.

I'd like to see the 3rd rework of JLI like giving them another upgrade that grants them something like STG44s and a grenade like the old OST Stormtroopers. So in the end it is left to player to choose between a long range anti-sniper/support infantry and an STG44 wielding camouflaging ambush squad.

So at least that gives some more flavor to Scavenge commander.

They are not anti sniper support.
They ARE sniper support.
OKW also does have elite STG troops as well as camo squad with full auto weapons, so both parts of that role are taken firmly already.

They are not anti sniper support.
They ARE sniper support.
OKW also does have elite STG troops as well as camo squad with full auto weapons, so both parts of that role are taken firmly already.

I explicitly put / sign there.

They are anti-sniper AND support unit that can barely go toe to toe with allied infantry. They are anti-sniper because they focus fire, hurt and eventually snipe the sniper with their rifle. They are support because they don't give their true value unless there is some other friendly unit hurting their target for them to snipe it (which I find weird considering the units theme was originally infiltration and still is named "Light Infantry").

And IMO it doesn't hurt to give the option to have full automatic ambush squad on another doctrine other than Luftwaffe.