Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

Please post all feedback from the Commander Update beta for the OKW faction here.

Full notes here

Overview of old versus new line-ups:
Commander Balance Patch 2021 Spreadsheet

Buildable 20mm Flak Emplacement
good change the unit need to be able to vet up though

Command Panther
The unit already has superior vision, flare should be available earlier and to more units, they should also be cheaper.

Early Warning Flare Traps
Good change

Le.FH 105mm
Counter barrage change is terrible, the 120mm mortar will dominate OKW trucks

Panzerfusiliers
The unit is too expensive compared to Penals reduce number of G43s and the cost of the unit.

Sturm Offizier
reduce cost of abilities with vet and lower XP value

Sturmtiger

Good change

Valiant Assault
good change

Zeroing Artillery
the ability needs to be toned, become cheaper with lower CP.

I'm sorry but pfusi's do not need any buff. The command tiger will be OP with all these changes. This is a triple buff to the tiger. Grand offensive would be teamgame meta 100% if these changes went through, not to mention you're also buffing breakthrough.

The radio silence radio static sound effect change is a very nice change and it seems very cool. Is the Sturmpioneer flamethrower + minesweeper warranted? With each coming patch Sturmpioneers are becoming more and more Ubersoldaten.

So with no flares and no counter barrage how is axis suppose to kill the Self propelled guns? Our tanks are more expensive, allied AA will tear our planes apart and we have no self propelled Arty.

So some rank 5000 streamers who cant counter an arty piece influence the rest of the game.

OKW tiger is already having absolutely rediculous fire rate at high veterancy combined with ability, even faster than the tiger in vCoH Tiger Elite campaign lmao. Please looks into this before apply more buff on to it.

LeFH ability is really wierd. Like REALLY wierd. And buggy.

1) Ability lasts 60 seconds and puts both barrages on cooldown, but if you cancel it during its activation, both of them will be off cooldown. Even if it already fired, meaning you can just constantly activate and deactivate it making it infinet. But if you let it stay active for 60 seconds, it will be deactivated and have the cooldown, even if it didnt fire.
2) It seems like its prio is inf, but it will still fire at tanks, wasting itself.
3) It really needs tracking here (because I belive canceling it should still apply CD), but even if it has a circle fire, it will still only fire if targer is in its arc.
4) In testing scenario its actually OP as fuck, because it almost never misses even at max range. Pretty much if your inf stay for a second it will get it in the face.
5) For some reason it fires 2 shells, then stop firing, then fires again
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On a side note, I think you should just add frag barrage as a vet 1 ability, without this friendly territory shenanigans.

Please add vetrancy to Buildable 20mm Flak Emplacement, and try to fix the issue that Sturm officer's bodyguards couldn't take decrewed team weapons.

105mm Artillery Barrage
Since off-map abilities cannot be targeted in the base sector, the amount of munitions needed to escalate the ability is being reduced by a significant margin - previously the increase was due to the fact it could destroy the entire USF base. The number of shells will be lower than the old values, but it will be easier to max out the artillery barrage.

Oh man, what a blast from the past. I remember making a post calling it out on how overpowered it was.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/21421/okw-tactical-nuke-needs-to-be-fixed

As I mentioned already in the "General feedback thread" I was disappointed when I first read the OKW changes although the changes you did are all good:
I especially like:
- The Pfussi buffs: This was long overdue. It was always a bad joke that a doctrinal unit that costs 270 mp was outclassed by the much cheaper cons.
-Very welcome changes to fortress doctrine

So why I'm disappointed? Let me explain:
As I mentioned before I like the changes you did. But I'm quiet disappointed that 2nd tier commanders like Luftwaffe, Firestorm and Elite Armor did not get any meaningful buffs.

Elite Armor:
- Removing abandonded is a good change but no buff because the AVRE never had this problem.
- Why is the 221 not getting a buff? The unit s much more expensive in fuel than
the UC AND locked behind the truck but does not nearly have the same impact. At least a price reduction is needed or make it build able without the truck.


Luftwaffe:
Copy and paste post from my OKW commander thread:
- "A good commander that is one Ostwind away from being in a perfect spot. The Flakpanzer belongs to this doctrine, there is no way around it. The only reason why it was not included in the first place was because Relic did not want to include a wehr unit in the first three OKW commanders. In contrast to Luftwaffe where the Ostwind is a clear fit there is no real reason to put in in Scavenge beside the fact that Relic needed something to sell a new commander.
OKW has 2 commander with Jaegers, 2 commanders with Pfussis, 2 commanders with leFH. This hasn’t made the commander pool worse but better. So there is really no convincing argument for not giving the Ostwind to Luftwaffe."
I stand to this post and hasn't read any convincing argument yet why this change would not make sense.
- Airborne Assault:
By far the worst of the 12CP/200 mun air abilities and it's not even close. The suppression pin is just bad compared to the AI strafe of Strafing Support for example that does heavy damage. The ability is completely useless against team weapons because the enemy mg's can still fire. And the single AT loiter comes so late that opposing players have plenty of time to retreat their tanks.
It's very simple: If you want a decent AT air ability you choose overwatch.
SO all in all this ability needs a rework. It's that easy.

Firestorm:
This commander already got 2, I repeat 2 reworks, and is still not on the same power level of other commanders. Even the recent changes to the Hetzer timing haven't made a big difference.
Here are my arguments why this commander need changes:
- Why should Firestorm have the "incendiary barrage" that only affects 1 unit when US "Urban Assault Kit" benefits 2 units (Riflemen and RE)?
US players have usually 2-3 rifles and with this commander 2 RE. That means that the ability is useful for 5 units, incendiary barrage only benefits max. 2 leigs. It's a question of consistency to balance this discrepancy out imo.
- The Opel truck is a useful unit but after the recent tech changes it certainly lost some of it's attractiveness. And thematically it was always a weird choice in this commander. It would fit a lot better to Fortress (to reinforce weapon teams and infantry to hold your ground).
So here is my suggestion:
- Replace "For the fatherland" in Fortress doctrine with the Opel Truck
- Opel Truck replaced by HEAT rounds in Firestorm

Firestorm would get a much better fitting ability and finally some AT. After seeing so many improvements for other commanders (see Shock Army for example: T34/85 and strong off map) I absolutely see no reason why Firestorm should not get FINALLY some bigger changes.

That's it from my side.

Scavenge Doctrine

Thorough Salvage does not warrant a single slot on his own, it's an extremely underwhelming ability with no relevancy whatsoever, especially now that it's even easier to just deny team weapons by targeting them.
Merging it with rudimentary repair and construction ability for Volksgrenadiers could make it worth it and help Sturmpioneers manage engineer duty

Feuersturm Doctrine

Incendiary munitions is still a wrong idea.
A single slot for an extra ability for a single unit locked in a specific tech pathing is not good. Ironically enough, with the new tech changes, Feuersturm is the only doctrine that allows skipping completely Battlegroup HQ because of Opel Truck Ambulance.
On a side note the lower munitiom cost with greatly benefit the le.IG in teamgames and probably be op with an EXTREME area denial potential at capping and pressure against emplacements and team weapons.
Changing it with a new mortar using Wehrmacht model, that has also a flame barrage, is far better, more balanced, overall better synergy with OKW as a whole, and would be useful both in 1vs1 and teamgames without breaking either.

Luftwaffe Ground Forces Doctrine

Falls need a rework as they currently fit no niche within OKW
Airborne Assault is useless, maybe replace it with a fragmentation bombing run or even heavy bombing run
Flak Emplacement needs veterancy (with low requirements), possibly extra durability frontloaded at vet 1 and 2 and range, sight and offensive bonuses at vet 3/4/5

Grand Offensive Doctrine/Breakthrough Doctrine

Panzerfusiliers changes were necessary because the redesign of the unit was weird and unnecessarily convoluted. If the kar98k gets too much of an edge in terms of dps, shreckblobs may become problematic again.
Reconsider not giving shrecks at all to Panzerfusiliers (especially since shreck sturms are finally an option), giving it back its 6th man from the start and if really needed, consider using the German Panzerbüchse model in game as light AT upgrade path with AI dps

Elite Armored Doctrine

The 221 is too expensive for what it does. It's countered by anything on wheels or tracks in the same way Kubel is. Either increase the mg42 damage or lower the fuel cost. Better non doctrinal halftracks come at the same time and can carry squads on top of machineguns.

- Replace "For the fatherland" in Fortress doctrine with the Opel Truck

I really like this idea, the pak43s and lefhs badly need a reinforcement option in that doctrine imo. Right now okw players are forced to put them around their battlegroup hq unless an ostheer 251 ht helps out.

Firestorm

Imo the doctrine (in team games at least) is already in a good spot. Forward reinforcement, a powerfull off-map and a dedicated anti-infantry tank which okw generally lacks. The opel wasn't meant to be used as a battle bus, so the armor nerf is justified
The cost reduction on the leig napalm isn't imo, as it was primarily used to delete british emplacements (it's super effective against them) and this change makes it even easier. And even against other static soft targets, like weapon teams, the ability is quite effective imo. It may not kill them outright, but deals a significant health damage and also forces a redeployment or retreat. With the napalm rounds a leig can gain vet super fast at which point it becomes even more effective with normal rounds.

As I mentioned already in the "General feedback thread" I was disappointed when I first read the OKW changes although the changes you did are all good:
I especially like:
- The Pfussi buffs: This was long overdue. It was always a bad joke that a doctrinal unit that costs 270 mp was outclassed by the much cheaper cons.
-Very welcome changes to fortress doctrine

So why I'm disappointed? Let me explain:
As I mentioned before I like the changes you did. But I'm quiet disappointed that 2nd tier commanders like Luftwaffe, Firestorm and Elite Armor did not get any meaningful buffs.

Elite Armor:
- Removing abandonded is a good change but no buff because the AVRE never had this problem.
- Why is the 221 not getting a buff? The unit s much more expensive in fuel than
the UC AND locked behind the truck but does not nearly have the same impact. At least a price reduction is needed or make it build able without the truck.


Luftwaffe:
Copy and paste post from my OKW commander thread:
- "A good commander that is one Ostwind away from being in a perfect spot. The Flakpanzer belongs to this doctrine, there is no way around it. The only reason why it was not included in the first place was because Relic did not want to include a wehr unit in the first three OKW commanders. In contrast to Luftwaffe where the Ostwind is a clear fit there is no real reason to put in in Scavenge beside the fact that Relic needed something to sell a new commander.
OKW has 2 commander with Jaegers, 2 commanders with Pfussis, 2 commanders with leFH. This hasn’t made the commander pool worse but better. So there is really no convincing argument for not giving the Ostwind to Luftwaffe."
I stand to this post and hasn't read any convincing argument yet why this change would not make sense.
- Airborne Assault:
By far the worst of the 12CP/200 mun air abilities and it's not even close. The suppression pin is just bad compared to the AI strafe of Strafing Support for example that does heavy damage. The ability is completely useless against team weapons because the enemy mg's can still fire. And the single AT loiter comes so late that opposing players have plenty of time to retreat their tanks.
It's very simple: If you want a decent AT air ability you choose overwatch.
SO all in all this ability needs a rework. It's that easy.

Firestorm:
This commander already got 2, I repeat 2 reworks, and is still not on the same power level of other commanders. Even the recent changes to the Hetzer timing haven't made a big difference.
Here are my arguments why this commander need changes:
- Why should Firestorm have the "incendiary barrage" that only affects 1 unit when US "Urban Assault Kit" benefits 2 units (Riflemen and RE)?
US players have usually 2-3 rifles and with this commander 2 RE. That means that the ability is useful for 5 units, incendiary barrage only benefits max. 2 leigs. It's a question of consistency to balance this discrepancy out imo.
- The Opel truck is a useful unit but after the recent tech changes it certainly lost some of it's attractiveness. And thematically it was always a weird choice in this commander. It would fit a lot better to Fortress (to reinforce weapon teams and infantry to hold your ground).
So here is my suggestion:
- Replace "For the fatherland" in Fortress doctrine with the Opel Truck
- Opel Truck replaced by HEAT rounds in Firestorm

Firestorm would get a much better fitting ability and finally some AT. After seeing so many improvements for other commanders (see Shock Army for example: T34/85 and strong off map) I absolutely see no reason why Firestorm should not get FINALLY some bigger changes.

That's it from my side.

I agree with u especially about the Airborne Assault, this ability is really useless and need a rework,

And I really love to see both flak AA emplacements and Ostwind in Luftwaffe, but if I have to choose between them I will go for Ostwind.

Imo the doctrine (in team games at least) is already in a good spot. Forward reinforcement, a powerfull off-map and a dedicated anti-infantry tank which okw generally lacks. The opel wasn't meant to be used as a battle bus, so the armor nerf is justified
The cost reduction on the leig napalm isn't imo, as it was primarily used to delete british emplacements (it's super effective against them) and this change makes it even easier. And even against other static soft targets, like weapon teams, the ability is quite effective imo. It may not kill them outright, but deals a significant health damage and also forces a redeployment or retreat. With the napalm rounds a leig can gain vet super fast at which point it becomes even more effective with normal rounds.

There's nothing powerful in the 280mm Rocket Barrage, it's a slow off map

There's nothing powerful in the 280mm Rocket Barrage, it's a slow off map

The point is that this ability works very well in combination of the new Uhu recon plane, great for deleting howitzers.

The point is that this ability works very well in combination of the new Uhu recon plane, great for deleting howitzers.

So does any other offmap or bombing run.
If anything, the barrage needs a slight lower delay to be useful beyond teamgames and static targets

So does any other offmap or bombing run.

You mean the assault artillery from breakthrough doctrine? And perhaps the new 105 mm arty from scavenege. Cuz these are the only other options an okw player can use together with the recon, without help from an another player.

okw should can build fuel@ammo cache。

I wouldn't allow the Command Tiger ability to stack with the Tiger itself, instead of buffing the Tiger's Vet 2 I would have liked to see the Panzer Commander be purchasable on the Tiger instead. If the Fusiliers are getting buffed them absolutely have to have their 2nd weapon slot removed so they can only get the G43's and 6th man. Being able to pick up a Bar on that squad is far too powerful for a mainline infantry squad imo. Otherwise I am alright with most of the changes.

My wish——
Merge IRstg and Volks MP40
Merge Flamethrowe and incendiary barrage
Thorough Salvage allow Pioneer build Fuel and Ammunition point
And why not just remove Stormtiger reload debuff and make it auto load？