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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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23 Apr 2021, 12:27 PM
#541
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Are you sure?
I found no notes or references to this, only references to -50% accuracy for slot items. I thought Osttruppen K98 out of cover DPS was lower compared to Grens mostly because they only do half the damage.

I thought in-cover DPS of Osttruppen K98 was limited due to hit chance being capped at 1 and they get a lot of over-accuracy.

Yep I am pretty sure.

It is weird mechanism that does not make much sense similar to KV-2 indirect reload mechanism.
23 Apr 2021, 17:20 PM
#542
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Is it intentional that mechanized assault group from mech assault is not being replaced just with 250\1 call in, like it was made for mech. grens?
23 Apr 2021, 19:14 PM
#543
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

Is it intentional that mechanized assault group from mech assault is not being replaced just with 250\1 call in, like it was made for mech. grens?

I assume it's because a PzGren with a 250 comes at a decent timing relative to what it brings. The regular Grens in a halftrack came well after you already had all the Grens you could really want.
23 Apr 2021, 19:51 PM
#544
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359


It is more like you give up a lot of close to mid range DPS to gain a okay to decent DPS increase to long range and okay to very good when moving.

I'd say it is a side grade for sure, but it is not a clear upgrade as you say. Overall the upgrade a weird design for PGrens when looking at the additional abilities


One thing I didn't notice you guys discussing was map selection. On some maps that g43 upgrade for PGrens will shine harder than some other choices. So that can be a viable reason why you would go for that instead of the other upgrades or not upgrading at all.
23 Apr 2021, 20:49 PM
#545
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2



One thing I didn't notice you guys discussing was map selection. On some maps that g43 upgrade for PGrens will shine harder than some other choices. So that can be a viable reason why you would go for that instead of the other upgrades or not upgrading at all.


Well at the time I thought the G43 is an overall downgrade.
I had some wrong assumptions though, so there is a small niche for it. On PGrens I still don't find it to be a great upgrade overall
24 Apr 2021, 00:04 AM
#546
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

One balance oversight that will need addressed that I noticed is that Stun Grenades and HE Grenades w/ Jaeger Package in Elite Troops don't share a cooldown. So you can stun and then nuke squads :D IMO it would be nice if Stormtroopers with G43 had their stun grenade or flame grenade replaced with HE Grenade.

Is it too late to do something with Close Air Support? Luftwaffles Officer puts that commander to shame now since he gets 2 Abilities (Recon and Suppressing Strafe) on top of him as a combat squad. I don't see why you couldn't put him in CAS as well and then add one other ability where Recon/AI Strafe was. I know it wouldn't be super thematic but it would be a nice excuse to add abilities only in 1 other commander like Breakthrough (Encirclement) or Breakthrough Equipment. Some fuel ability like StuG E would also work since the commander is all munitions...
24 Apr 2021, 02:33 AM
#547
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 309

So when Beta goes live will most of you still prefer lmg42 grens over g43 grens? Or maybe they're both good. I really don't know. I'm a noob. But I do know pre-beta lmg42 grens are pretty strong at least
24 Apr 2021, 06:23 AM
#548
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

SO i was wondering. Once Sander told me the reason that Ass grens had lower dps on their mp40 compared to similarly priced Ass engineers was that they had sprint at the start and had no problem closing in.

Now since they don't have that at the start anymore can we see their dps increase a bit.
24 Apr 2021, 12:19 PM
#549
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

All of the suggested changes are perhaps a bit too much for me to fully digest/understand but:

-with the nerf of German infantry commander, there is no great infantry for OST. Allies retain superiority
-with the nerf of 105 lefh CB(OP but a necessary evil) allies retain superiority
-spotting scope removed for elefant, 1 tank per player, only tank that has over 50 range for OST. levels the playing field, but feels wrong somehow.
-off-map still favoring allies

to conclude my thoughts: this would nerf the defensive playstyle of OST, but does not buff its aggressive playstyle to compensate.
As i said previous, i have most likely missed some things, as buffs/nerfs to other factions, and how it all ties in together, but so far, this is the feeling i am left with.
24 Apr 2021, 14:57 PM
#550
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Does Stug-E really need both a tech lock and CP lock? Imo one should test removing CP5 and make the unit build able form hq instead of call-in.
24 Apr 2021, 15:17 PM
#551
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

Replace the AT strafe with Breakthrough Equipment in Jaeger Armor. The doctrine is all about maximizing the power of the Elefant with so many ways to give sight to it. Pioneres being able to demolish sight blockers would allow the doctrine to potentially open the map up for the elefant and I think fits pretty well thematically. However, I would say this is a decent but not overwhelming effect unlike the AT strafe which is so powerful in a doctrine like this.
24 Apr 2021, 15:52 PM
#552
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

SO i was wondering. Once Sander told me the reason that Ass grens had lower dps on their mp40 compared to similarly priced Ass engineers was that they had sprint at the start and had no problem closing in.

Now since they don't have that at the start anymore can we see their dps increase a bit.


I remember that too
24 Apr 2021, 17:40 PM
#553
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Apr 2021, 12:27 PMVipper

Yep I am pretty sure.

It is weird mechanism that does not make much sense similar to KV-2 indirect reload mechanism.

Just tested this, you are right. A single Osttruppen model has a DPS of around 1 DPS (took ~80 seconds to kill a Partisan model) when out of cover and 3.3 when in cover (~24 sec per model).

I am wondering though why people consider Osttruppen bad especially in team games and late game. Those modes especially have a lot of cover due to artillery. And Osttruppen are one of the most MP efficient squads possible.

Is it really "only" the lack of a grenade?
24 Apr 2021, 17:47 PM
#554
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Just tested this, you are right. A single Osttruppen model has a DPS of around 1 DPS (took ~80 seconds to kill a Partisan model) when out of cover and 3.3 when in cover (~24 sec per model).

I am wondering though why people consider Osttruppen bad especially in team games and late game. Those modes especially have a lot of cover due to artillery. And Osttruppen are one of the most MP efficient squads possible.

Is it really "only" the lack of a grenade?

It the target size, 0.89 even at vet 3.

One can simply not rebuilt them because they get slaughter at late game.

The lmg is simply not a good upgrade them and currently they are not that good for crewing support weapons
24 Apr 2021, 18:22 PM
#555
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

I am wondering though why people consider Osttruppen bad especially in team games and late game. Those modes especially have a lot of cover due to artillery. And Osttruppen are one of the most MP efficient squads possible.?


Osttruppen are only efficient in singular engagements against other mainlines, camping behind cover to wear them out before slowly advancing. Teamgames usually resolve more around assaults, massed engagements, HMGs, indirect fire and elite infantry. They are terrible in those situations. They have no real pushing power.
24 Apr 2021, 18:26 PM
#556
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Apr 2021, 17:47 PMVipper

It the target size, 0.89 even at vet 3.

One can simply not rebuilt them because they get slaughter at late game.

The lmg is simply not a good upgrade them and currently they are not that good for crewing support weapons

Potentially. However, compared to Grens Osttruppen are relatively equal in fighting power given their larger HP pool.

That's why I would assume that it has to do more with their inflexibility and the fact that there still will be plenty of occasions in the late game where your units won't get cover in time, at least on larger maps.
24 Apr 2021, 18:43 PM
#557
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Unpopular opinion time: infantry combat was best during vet gate. The levels of bonuses some units get from very makes losing squads near impossible to recover from.
Imo (and I know it's far far too late at this point) but infantry bonuses should be SMALL Stat changes and abilities instead. Things like reduced ability costs or faster cool downs. Things that make squads more potent withiut making a replacement squad so neutered its nearly hopeless. Raise the skill ceiling not the floor.
24 Apr 2021, 18:47 PM
#558
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2



Osttruppen are only efficient in singular engagements against other mainlines, camping behind cover to wear them out before slowly advancing. Teamgames usually resolve more around assaults, massed engagements, HMGs, indirect fire and elite infantry. They are terrible in those situations.


That's a good point.

One slightly odd thing is that they generate quite some over-accuracy, which means that compared to Grens a vetted Osttruppen performs better against low RA squads (either a highly vetted enemy squad or the enemy squad is in cover) than against a high RA squad like a newly build one or in red cover. It is only a minor thing but still strange behaviour.

In my calculations, I also saw that the "new" Osttruppen squad as in the preview beats late game Grenadiers in terms of firepower per population and even more so in MP efficiency. In live, Osttruppen are equal to slightly worse. The LMG buff will buff late game Osttruppen out of cover almost to the level of current Osttruppen in cover. New Osttruppen will beat Grenadiers in most situations.
These calcs are the most meaningful for dragged out squad vs squad fights, which are more prevalent in 1v1. The current buff will therefore be mostly for 1v1, I though you were trying to target larger team games as well?
24 Apr 2021, 19:12 PM
#559
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

Thinking about this, why not give Osttruppen "Hit the dirt"?

Either as a toggle or a timed ability, and maybe with slightly different modifiers. But at least that ability would finally be on a squad where it is design wise fitting and potentially useful.
24 Apr 2021, 19:41 PM
#560
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Unpopular opinion time: infantry combat was best during vet gate. The levels of bonuses some units get from very makes losing squads near impossible to recover from.
Imo (and I know it's far far too late at this point) but infantry bonuses should be SMALL Stat changes and abilities instead. Things like reduced ability costs or faster cool downs. Things that make squads more potent withiut making a replacement squad so neutered its nearly hopeless. Raise the skill ceiling not the floor.

Absolutely disagree. This actually leaves room for elite troops to fill the role of AI unit if some mainlime is wiped. Without veterancy scaling there would be almost no penalty besides the mp cost for losing squads, but it's far from impossible to recover from losing a mainline because many late game units can cover their role
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