Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

Not really off topic, I suggest commander change and we are now discussing wether said change is worthwile and balanced!

In any case, I just hope that some more experimental changes in the vein of the Spearhead and Lightning war changes that stared this discussion can be included in the beta and tried - and then discarded, if they are OP, or kept if they are good!

Since the Mod teams read this threads for feedback of abilities in patch or suggestions for change in abilities is more helpful then general balance debate or the difference between OKW and Ostheer that can be debate in other thread.

It is my personal opinion that combination should be avoid that includes:
Super heavies loiter AT planes
Super heavies artillery pieces/SPG
Super heavies emplacement delete abilities
Supper heavies abilities that delete ATGs
SPG emplacement delete abilities

It is my personal opinion that combination should be avoid that includes:
Super heavies loiter AT planes
Super heavies artillery pieces/SPG
Super heavies emplacement delete abilities
Supper heavies abilities that delete ATGs
SPG emplacement delete abilities

In my view that this is fixing what isn't broken and making the game a lot less fun.

Loitering planes aren't that good anyway, as in 2v2+ considering an AA unit can render them worthless.

In my view that this is fixing what isn't broken and making the game a lot less fun.

Commander are broken there are very few meta commander compare to commander available.

The fun will be the same but simply not a single commander.

Loitering planes aren't that good anyway, as in 2v2+ considering an AA unit can render them worthless.

Now imagine playing 1vs1 building 3 M10 to a kill tiger, executing a perfect flank only to have retreat because loiter stukas are called in.

In my view that this is fixing what isn't broken and making the game a lot less fun.

Loitering planes aren't that good anyway, as in 2v2+ considering an AA unit can render them worthless.

+1 to this, though i do think vipper has a point here. however, things are a bit more complex than 'super heavies must exclude loiters' as there's more to a commander than just the two most powerful abilities.

For peeps who play trash tiger, stop torturing yourself

Some more ideas I guess -

The direction that Joint operations is going seems really good, however I think the command panzer doesn’t quite fit the theme.
Joint Operations

In this case, “Command panzer” would be replaced with “Artillery observation Panzer”
As per the historical Panzerbeobachtungswagen (Tank observation vehicle), the tank would be the Long barrelled Panzer IV without a coaxial MG.
- Some abilities could be: Artillery flares, Mark Target, Hummel 150mm artillery barrage. Or maybe some others.

I'm kinda surprised that Command Panzer IV doesn't fit with the different buffs it got. A smoke shot and a possible Light Artillery Barrage seem like they go right into this doctrine theme wise. Plus at least from the little I played the Command Panzer IV has felt a lot better with the buffs and seemed like a great inclusion for this commanders.

While not the worst commanders, Spearhead and Lighting War are not standouts either.

Spearhead

Replace Recon overflight with Jager command squad
This commander just doesn’t feel that impactful when picked, and by adding the Jager command squad it adds something that you can change your play style around.

Lightning War

Replace Tactical movement with SdKfz 234 Puma
Having a second commander with the Puma would allow for more different ways to play, and Lighting war was the commander that fit the Puma best thematically, so I thought I’d suggest adding it here.

Although those commanders may not be super exciting I don't really think they need any changes beyond maybe a couple small buffs to some abilities. Which we are seeing that with stuff like that Tiger buff, G43 buff, and relief infantry changes.
For Spearhead I guess you could do something like that change but that's putting a pretty powerful unit into a doctrine that already has a lot of tools. It has Panzer Tact + Tiger and Frag Bombs to mess up AT that might challenge the Tiger. Does it really need an elite infantry and should that replace the recon (which works well with frag bombs)? I don't think it really does.

Lighting War I think is even less deserving of a change like that and I think it's going to condemn mobile defense to never be good again. Lightning has many solid traits that already put's very close to viable imo. Relief infantry is the only effect that really lacks imo and seemingly that is going to be reworked into something useful. Everything else is useful and makes the commander useful at pretty much all parts of the game. I think a puma would be going way to overboard when backed up by a strong late game call in, a tiger, and the now much better jaeger upgrade. The only way I see that could let the puma exist is if the terrible timing it kept which also screws mobile defense over because the main draw of that commander is the puma itself. We've seen how the puma alone can be so incredibly oppressive in ostheer even when it only has 1-2 good abilities alongside it and I would say lightning war has 3-4 good abilities that would come alongside it.

For the Ostheer Luftwaffe Supply Commander I suggest making the 300 airstrike ability cheaper from 300 down to 200 ammunitions. Reason being it has a huge delay so it's easy to dodge and for that price a railway strike ability at 200 ammunitions does more damage.

See video below for my analysis of the changes:

Luftwaffe supply:
- Restore Supply Drop Zone
- Restore stuka dive bomb (dive bomb is part of the faction variety)
- Remove recon (because no uncounterable (arty not aircraft) offmaps & recon in one commander) and replace with the Luftwaffe officer

I barely play ostheer but the changes are obviously neutering it.

V high munitions, long-delay strikes are no where near as useful as stuka bombs. And the supply drop zone is what makes this such a good supportive commander in a team.

Joint operations response

I'm kinda surprised that Command Panzer IV doesn't fit with the different buffs it got.

As in my original post, I don’t think it quite fits. I do agree that it almost fits in to the doctrine thematically.

The other reason I proposed this change is because the Command panzer is already in 5 commanders, and changing out the commad panzer in joint operations for a potential artillery observation vehicle would reduce overlap(one of the goals of the patch) and be more on the artillery theme.

Spearhead response

For Spearhead I guess you could do something like that change but that's putting a pretty powerful unit into a doctrine that already has a lot of tools (...). Does it really need an elite infantry and should that replace the recon (which works well with frag bombs)? I don't think it really does.

Yeah, it would be a bit over the top, so as per Vipper’s feedback maybe it could be tried alongside swapping frag bombs for incendiary bombs?

tangent
Side note - I don’t know why people assume when a change is proposed the OP wants said changes implemented to the letter. I’m never saying the idea is perfect, and I just want to put it out there, to see if it’s good generally and then get more fine balance from there. I feel like many good ideas get shot down because it wasn’t perfect right out of the gate, and people just criticize instead of constructive feedback.

Lighting war response

Lighting War I think is even less deserving of a change like that and I think it's going to condemn mobile defense to never be good again. Lightning has many solid traits that already put's very close to viable imo.

Like I said originally I wanted to put Puna in a nother commander, and Lightning war was the best thematic fit, so I suggested that. If it is op, it’s other abilities could be tuned down, or the Puma idea discarded. I just hope some things will be tried using the beta so I suggest crazier ideas.

The only way I see that could let the puma exist is if the terrible timing it kept which also screws mobile defense over because the main draw of that commander is the puma itself. We've seen how the puma alone can be so incredibly oppressive in ostheer even when it only has 1-2 good abilities alongside it and I would say lightning war has 3-4 good abilities that would come alongside it.

I don’t see the puma ever being buffed that’s why.
Puma itself can’t be buffed because any buff would make OKW’s puma over powered.
Timing can’t be changed because 4cp/BP1 is too early, and 5cp/bp2 is too late.
So all that’s left is putting it in commanders with good other abilities to compensate. I think Mobile defence could use some buffs as well with current Puma power.

Although those commanders may not be super exciting I don't really think they need any changes beyond maybe a couple small buffs to some abilities.

I will leave you with this line of thought though,

(Me,) I think that the changes from my original post would make Lighting war and Spearhead more desirable than other Ostheer commanders. But, the changed commaders (with proposed changes) are on the same level as the other factions commanders .

Ostheer used to have an advantage with its stock units, none of them being locked behind side techs/tech paths, and them being better than their counterparts. And, they had T4 which was equivalent to the power of allied doctrines.

But over the years, the other factions have (rightfully) gotten easier access to team weapons and had their team weapons buffed to be usable, and been given better stock options to deal with Ost T4 alongside the nerfs to it.

If changes to commanders like I had were proposed back when Ost T4 was hard to counter without doctrines, and Allied team weapons were hard to get and weak, I would have agreed with Vipper’s sentiment that the doctrines were over the top.

But, now stock Ostheer is on the same footing as Allied stock, but their commanders remain below those of the allies as if Ostheer stock was still better than Allied stock. I think it is time that Ostheer commanders were brought up to par with Allied commanders, just like how Allied stock has been brought up over the years to Ost levels.

Please tell me what you think of this sentiment.

Do you see that ostheer’s commaders on the same level as other faction’s commaders, or do they have something stock that makes their commaders have to be weak, or do you agree that Ostheers’ commanders be brought up to other Factions’ commaders’ power levels?

Snip

If we were able to implement custom models the 250/22 as an upgrade for the 250 would be an option to replace the Puma in OST doctrines. It would mean there is no need to be concerned about separate balancing for the OST and OKW Puma, and the unit itself would be a better thematic and mechanical fit to OST.

I wonder if the unit could be approximated using tools we already posses?



EDIT: This unit, coupled with the 250 HT, would pretty much define "Mobile defence" as a doctrine. You have vehicle mounted PAK and MG42 support!

If we were able to implement custom models the 250/22 as an upgrade for the 250 would be an option to replace the Puma in OST doctrines. It would mean there is no need to be concerned about separate balancing for the OST and OKW Puma, and the unit itself would be a better thematic and mechanical fit to OST.

I wonder if the unit could be approximated using tools we already posses?



EDIT: This unit, coupled with the 250 HT, would pretty much define "Mobile defence" as a doctrine. You have vehicle mounted PAK and MG42 support!

Just a note, that's a 251/22.

They only ever mounted a 50mm Pak 38 on the 250 from what I remember as an experiment.

Pictured here the Sd.Kfz.250 mit 5 cm PaK 38:



Edit and this is a side view of the 251/22 with the Pak 40 where you can see has a longer chassis and more roadwheels of course:

Just a note, that's a 251/22.

They only ever mounted a 50mm Pak 38 on the 250 from what I remember as an experiment.

Oh, yeah, sorry, that was a Typo. I meant 251/22, and having it as a potential doctrinal upgrade for the nondoctrinal 251 as an alternative to the Flamethrower.

The Sd.Kfz. 250/10 would also be an option, the PAK-36 doesn't exist as a model, but a weaker gun in exchange for the improved mobility of the vehicle would be a fair tradeoff.

Oh, yeah, sorry, that was a Typo. I meant 251/22, and having it as a potential doctrinal upgrade for the nondoctrinal 251 as an alternative to the Flamethrower.

The Sd.Kfz. 250/10 would also be an option, the PAK-36 doesn't exist as a model, but a weaker gun in exchange for the improved mobility of the vehicle would be a fair tradeoff.

No worries.

And I mean they could just use the Soviet M42 45mm AT gun model since they're pretty similar.

Just needs to be reskinned I'm guessing, if it were only that easy.

Or alternatively just port the 250 model from CoH.

And I mean they could just use the Soviet M42 45mm AT gun model since they're pretty similar.

Just needs to be reskinned I'm guessing, if it were only that easy.

Well, the M42 IS just a soviet copy of the Pak-36, so that's probably doable. The recoil mechanism looks a little different between the two guns, but I don't think it's anything noticeable. Retexture the thing and you likely couldn't tell it wasn't a Pak-36.

Show Spoiler

Or alternatively just port the 250 model from CoH.

Given that the CoH2 250 model is almost exactly the same as the CoH1 version (Except for a couple of pieces of stowage, and a couple of vision slits... and the Textures, obviously) this is also likely doable without looking even slightly out of place.

Again, the only impediment being Relic preventing such asset importation.

Well, the M42 IS just a soviet copy of the Pak-36, so that's probably doable. The recoil mechanism looks a little different between the two guns, but I don't think it's anything noticeable. Retexture the thing and you likely couldn't tell it wasn't a Pak-36.

Show Spoiler

Given that the CoH2 250 model is almost exactly the same as the CoH1 version (Except for a couple of pieces of stowage, and a couple of vision slits... and the Textures, obviously) this is also likely doable without looking even slightly out of place.

Again, the only impediment being Relic preventing such asset importation.

Funny you mention the mortar:



Made this about an year ago for the new commander suggestions and included some humor in there.

As far as the 250 goes, I meant the model with the pak 36, also called the "sniper halftrack".

As far as the 250 goes, I meant the model with the pak 36, also called the "sniper halftrack".

Oh, I know, I'm just saying that the base 250 models are almost identical, so it wouldn't look strange if an imported AT 250 were placed next to the current CoH2 250, nor should crewing it with CoH2 infantry models have any sort of scaling issues.

Oh, I know, I'm just saying that the base 250 models are almost identical, so it wouldn't look strange if an imported AT 250 were placed next to the current CoH2 250, nor should crewing it with CoH2 infantry models have any sort of scaling issues.

Yep, agreed.

Too bad they can't just do the same as the MG42 and just put the gun and it's shield on top since the carriage is tied to the model and can only be placed in a static position.

Pretty much the reason why the OT-34 and Sherman Crocodile also have to be static emplacements in the All Units Mod as well sadly.

Hey, maybe change the incindiery barrage in the Lufth supply to a WP strike???

Hey, maybe change the incindiery barrage in the Lufth supply to a WP strike???

Germany didn't use WP so it wouldn't make sense from a historical perspective.

However I believe there are still the unused mortar incendiary ability and Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers from the Urban Assault doctrine so maybe use that here instead?

Possible if you ask me.

I will leave you with this line of thought though,

Please tell me what you think of this sentiment.

Do you see that ostheer’s commaders on the same level as other faction’s commaders, or do they have something stock that makes their commaders have to be weak, or do you agree that Ostheers’ commanders be brought up to other Factions’ commaders’ power levels?

I agree with the need to improve the commanders of the Ostheer but I disagree with the ones that need help. I think doctrines like CAS, Mobile Defense, and others need big changes to shake them up and make them on par with other doctrines. However, the 4 tiger doctrines imo are in a much better position overall and mostly need small buffs over ability changes.

Lightning War I think it's fair to say is already quite a solid all around doctrine. It has abilities to improve infantry, a munition sink with a call in, and obviously has the tiger late game. This doctrine is also getting 3 buffs to it's various abilities (G43s, Tiger, and relief infantry although that needs more work).

Mechanized Assault I would also say is pretty well rounded and acted like an aggressive Tiger doctrine relying on Ass Grens and the Halftrack PzGrens to apply tons of pressure early on. Then following that up with the StuG IIIE and Light Artillery Barrage to keep the pressure on in the mid-late game before they try to close it out with a tiger. I do believe the nerf to Ass Grens was really unneeded and has made this doctrine a lot worse in that role but I think reverting that would make this fine again. In terms of buffs from the current patch it's getting 2 changes (the Tiger and Stug IIIE).

Spearhead I think can be somewhat justified in giving a more worthwhile ability since it really does center around the tiger by having so many call ins. The mortar halftrack probably stands out the most since it doesn't really add that much to helping the tiger and otherwise is just an early game indirect. Buff wise it's getting 2 buffs (Tiger and Mortar Halftrack) and then 1 nerf (Panzer Tactician).

Finally, Assault Support I think makes the most sense in giving more to. It's game plan is mostly centered around the opel blitz giving you more resources to rush out a tiger and spam the abilities more. However, I would say the various air strikes and what not fit the least with many of them mostly being harassment to enemy infantry/support weapons. There isn't any recon and the artillery officer doesn't really have that much that works with him. He's fine but also doesn't have a lot of other artillery to use stuff like coordinated barrage with. This doctrine only gets 1 buff (the Tiger).

Of all the tiger doctrines I think assault support would be the one I would look into as to improving with ability replacement. I think Lighting War doesn't need any changes beyond the ones it currently is getting, Mechanized Assault I think just needs the addition of the Ass Gren sprint again, and Spearhead is overall kinda average for me. Spearhead doesn't have a ton of power but it has a good mix of abilities that help you to maximize the power of the Tiger (like it gets smoke, you have recon to see what your facing, and frag bombs to nukes enemy AT guns with).

I would probably say that you could look to swap the mortar halftrack from Spearhead and then probably replace the AI strafe in Assault Support with more impactful things if we're looking to improve any of the Tiger doctrines. But beyond that I don't think they really need that big of changes and more so just could benefit from some ability buffs. Imo the big changes need to be going to other doctrines instead of the Tiger ones.