Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

Yes. And to Mobile Defense that just got the MOP added.

I like this change thematically, but Mobile defense still has no way to spend munitions late game

Realized that since it has Command P4, it can use light artillery

The forward supply post and access to repair bunkers feel unnecessary in Joint operations. You only need one, not both. The building conversion also is lacklustre especially as it is unusable on certain maps. (See all of whiteflash's maps). I don't think building conversion is the right way to go.
Just make a bundle with tank traps, trenches repair bunkers and Riegel mines. If you want to keep the concrete MG bunker don't give it reinforcement, that is the role of the half-track or of the command bunker.
Most importantly make the repair bunker cheaper, 300 manpower is way too much, even if you consider its sturdiness. Maybe like 200 and some ammo?
So basically merge the defensive fortifications and entrenching tools (why are they still two separate upgrades?) from Defensive Doctrine and Ostruppen Doctrine and forget about that building conversion cheese.
It's way too map dependent, either being completely OP on some or a waste on others.

Breakthrough
To encourage the use of this ability which requires fuel, a reload bonus is being added to allow vehicles to make an aggressive push.

Good change, still not sure whether it's worth the fuel for the ability though. I'm curious how fast you can get a Panzer IV to fire with the reload bulletin, Blitz, and Breakthrough though.

Command Panzer IV
The Command Panzer IV is receiving a smoke shell to allow it to support an assault or cover a retreat. The CP requirement has also been removed to allow the Command Tank to arrive when the Support Armor Korp or the Heavy Panzer Korp has been built. The Command Panzer IV has also received two new veteran 1 abilities to replace Blitzkrieg for this test. One of the two will be decided as the final ability at a later date.

Glad to see this one getting some attention. The smoke shell is helpful for sure. I cannot decide which of the abilities I like the sound of more. Light Artillery helps it support Infantry but Mark Target helps it support Vehicles.

Forward Resupply Station
Converts a garrisoned building in friendly territory to a Forward Resupply Station. Converted buildings have 6 Pioneers that will repair vehicles and reinforces nearby infantry.
Provides a +15% reload bonus to owned vehicles that are nearby - radius of 25
Costs 200 manpower and 45 fuel
Requires 5 CPs

Does this work for the PaK 43 and LeFH? Rapid barrage sounds quite funny ngl.

Grenadier Jeager Light Infantry Package
Given the frailness of Grenadiers who rely on fighting at range, the G43 upgrade was often a downgrade to the unit, especially in late game scenarios against most infantry squads. To compensate for this weakness, the Jeager Light Infantry Package will now provide a survivability boost to Grenadiers and also give them a standard Grenade for offensive and defensive use.

I love this one, I've said here and there before that the Model 24 would help to flesh out their close-in role. I'm glad the team is also trying something other than adding more G43's to make them useful, the target size reduction in this case. I still think the main issue with Grenadiers is they just got power creeped away by M1 Garands, Double Brens, and 7-man squads.

Osttruppen
With the recent changes to Osttruppen, they no longer require their LMG being restricted behind the final tier upgrade.

Good change, never saw why they had to wait so long for it, it's not even as good as Grenadier's version.

Panzer Tactician
Panzer Tactician is gaining a slight delay to its activation to make it slightly harder to instantly block line of sight against anti-vehicle weapons.

Good change, I think it should also apply to the Puma as well.

Strategic Bombing Run
Carpet Bomb over a large area in a line; roughly 40 meters
Drops a mixture of HE and incendiary bombs
250 Munitions
Plane immune to AA fire.
12 command points

Very early-war feeling ability. Interested in seeing how this compares to Air Supremacy Operation - and what it does to a Sim City.

Festung Armor
Command Panzer IV replaced with Panzer IV Ausf. J

I like this change, a late model Panzer IV does feel like it fits the theme.

Festung Support
LeFH replaced with Command Panzer IV

I disagree with this one, as others have pointed out, it leaves only 2 LeFH in the game, and none of them in Stock Commanders. Stock Commanders should be considered when removing units or abilities.

German Mechanized
Mechanized Grenadier Group replaced with 250/1 Halftrack

I wanted to keep the Grenadier group but give them an LMG 34 and Grenades to make them more unique. I suppose that's not really useful, I just thought it sounded cool.

Edit:

Storm Doctrine
Riegal AT mine replaced with Jeager Command Squad

Personally I'd put Stormtroopers in Storm doctrine.

About Veteran Squad Leader, I would increase their firepower slightly somehow, maybe give them a custom MP 44. Whenever I use it I can't help but think an LMG Gren would have served me better.

For festung armor, it seems weird for it to loose the command panzer.
The PaK 43 is more of a meme unit and not really worth 1 slot. Maybe PaK 43 and Hull down could be bundled?
Name could be like “anti armour equipment/training/supplies”

I think the Panzer 4 command tank should come with armour skirts, but that's just my opinion. Maybe adjust the price accordingly

My 2 cent about teh Ost Supply drop (Luftwaffe Supply / Ostrrtuppen):

The current price is too high imo and the ability comes a little bit too late. I think it would be better to remove the MG34 / or remove the fuel /mun crate from the drop so the price can be adjusted to 250 MP (price of the Soviet weapon drop) or the price of the drop in the UK Tactical support.
I think the ability would be used a lot more if it would be cheaper. It would also be very viable for teamgames because you could help your OKW mate with a very welcomed pak40.

So many changes, so many good ones!
Here are my favorites:
1. Riegel finally removed from Storm commander and replaced by Jaeger Command unit. YES, YES, YES!
2. Luftwaffe Supply: Shit, the commander is so good!
3. Festung Armor: only 1 change but one with a big impact! Commander looking really good now!
4. Commando P4: Please stick to the mark target ability; it's really useful and it encourages to use combined arms because the P4 cant use this ability for itself.

Just FIY mark target for command p4 doesn't increase damage so it doesn't make a deadly combo with Elefant. It only reduces armor (should be good vs heavies when you go T3 with p4s/stugs) and increase chance to hit the target.
We decide to add light artillery barrage rather than OKW tank commander off-map so it couldn't be so deadly and it won't be use to destroy abandone teamweapons.
Smoke shot should help in advancing your infantry, blind enemy mgs etc. just like cromwell and comet do. It should share the cooldown with panzertactician. If not then it's a bug.

At the end if CM P4 will be overperforming we might resign from 1 of those abilities and also how passive buff will work with stuff like hull-down etc.

About the Rigiel mine, we think how we could marge them or spread them across other commanders. Any idea would be welcome.

- Reduce the CP requirements for smokebombs to 2CP to bring it in line with the OKW ability

It's a bug. It should be 2

Things that still need to be done:
- At least 1 OST commander should get the Tank Commander upgrade considering that Germany's main tank forces were on the eastern front and most of his aces served there. I think it would fit well to Blitzkrieg (replacing Tactical movement then)

We already move critical repairs from OKW elite armor. I think we shouldn't mix too many abilities between OKW and OSTHEER because we loosing the diversity of those factions.

For assualt grens - their sprint from the start gave them big advantage above all infantry, which allow them to win all early fights, it was fair to lock it behind BF1.

Personally I'd put Stormtroopers in Storm doctrine.

Stormtroopers are already in 3 commanders. Jeager command squad only in 1. That's why we decided to add more rare unit.

Just FIY mark target for command p4 doesn't increase damage so it doesn't make a deadly combo with Elefant. It only reduces armor (should be good vs heavies when you go T3 with p4s/stugs) and increase chance to hit the target.
We decide to add light artillery barrage rather than OKW tank commander off-map so it couldn't be so deadly and it won't be use to destroy abandone teamweapons.
Smoke shot should help in advancing your infantry, blind enemy mgs etc. just like cromwell and comet do. It should share the cooldown with panzertactician. If not then it's a bug.

At the end if CM P4 will be overperforming we might resign from 1 of those abilities and also how passive buff will work with stuff like hull-down etc.

Imo the C. PzIV needs:
Lower XP value possibly lower manpower cost

Better gun, the gun has some of the worse penetration values in game, possibly allow 2 fire modes:
indirect similar to stug -E with range to 35 and direct possibly hollow charge AT round with low penetration possibly deflection damage

Superior MGs since it luck pintle.

Maybe use the commander animation to add a "focus sight" ability (timed)

vet bonus that fit the role and make aura/abilities scale

About the Rigiel mine, we think how we could marge them or spread them across other commanders. Any idea would be welcome.

Rename AT training

Decrease build time for Riegel

PG can now build reigiels

Paks automatically clock when stationary, with no first strike bonus

Stormtroopers are already in 3 commanders. Jeager command squad only in 1. That's why we decided to add more rare unit.

I like that the Jager command squad got added to another commander, but why Storm, other than that Storm is under powered right now? It makes Storm and Jager infantry very similar.

Storm and Jager armour now share Camo/Sprint and the Jaeger command squad.
Then you have smoke and Light artillery barrage, which both serve to force enemy team wepons to move.

Finally there are the differnces,
LefH & Stuka dive bomb versus G43s and Stuka AT



Only having 2 differentiating abilities is not so good, especially considering that the patch is supposed to increase diversity in commanders?

If you look at the commanders Assaut grenadiers the two commanders they come in are focused on the tiger and armour.

If we look at this, maybe it could be considered to add assault grenadiers to Storm instead of Jager command squad, it would increase diversity as it would finally give the option to play assault grenadiers with artillery instead of armour.
Plus, it seems that Storm = Assault grenadiers better than Storm = Jager command squad themeaticaly

Mobile defence Puma should be 4 CP

Yeah I agree. I feel like the puma comes in way too late. I was discussing with some CoH2 players and they say what's the point in getting the puma from mobile defense? By the time you reach 5cp you have enough fuel for a panzer 4

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I like the changes to the G43 upgrade for grenadiers, however I feel like VSL grens are not going to be used as much now. IMO you still need to be fighting at range with VSL grens and they no longer have their survivability bonus. Maybe they should get 2 stg44s instead of just one? Or give them a slight reduction in chance of being hit? Or slight increase in squad accuracy? idk I'm a noob so don't take my opinion too seriously

I like the addition of the Panzer 4 Model J to Festung Armour. I really like having access to this tank as Ostheer. And I feel like Festung Armour just wasn't good enough as it originally worked compared to other doctrines. However currently it can only use it's hulldown ability and it cannot use panzer tactician. (bug maybe?)

Yeah I agree. I feel like the puma comes in way too late. I was discussing with some CoH2 players and they say what's the point in getting the puma from mobile defense? By the time you reach 5cp you have enough fuel for a panzer 4

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I like the changes to the G43 upgrade for grenadiers, however I feel like VSL grens are not going to be used as much now. IMO you still need to be fighting at range with VSL grens and they no longer have their survivability bonus. Maybe they should get 2 stg44s instead of just one? idk I'm a noob so don't take my opinion too seriously

Yeah that's why I decided to make the KT suggestion.

I'll throw in my idea here again of an Ostheer King TIger for one of their doctrines like Mobile Defense or Festung Armor as Sander said:

Hello, this is my suggestion based on observations for a new addition as a unit to the Ostheer commanders in the next update.

Now my idea was originally revolving around giving a unique King Tiger to the Mobile Defense Doctrine as it already has an OKW lend-lease sort of theme going for it and plus after the Puma changes and now also the removal of the Osttruppen it loses it's appeal even more if you ask me, but it could also be placed in other doctrines as well I suppose.

This could be an Ace or Command variant of the tank with an S-mine launcher, similar to the Sturmtiger's one which would be a new ability for the Ostheer and also a smoke pod ability similar to the Sherman's one.

The reason for these 2 abilities being that the King Tiger, like the late Tiger Ausf. E and Panther Ausf. Gs had this little contraption mounted on top of the turret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahverteidigungswaffe



Without trying to pronounce it's German name, it's basically a small turret mounted grenade type launcher that was operated by the loader using a periscope inside the turret where he was safe. He could load and fire either a smoke or s-mine type explosive grenade, as well as a flare one but I guess that's not really needed here (?).

As for the theming, King Tigers, like Tigers, were for the most part put into Heavy Tank Battalions, the Wehrmacht ones numbering from 501 to 511th, the Waffen SS ones from 101st to 103rd and there were also side units that used these tanks like an organic battalion of the Grossdeutschland Division, a company of the Panzer Lehr and a bunch of other riff-raff units.

Kurt Knispel, the top tank ace still in the world was part of one of the previously mentioned Heavy Tank Battalions of the Wehrmacht, the 503rd which was deployed first to Normandy in 1944 in anticipation of Operation Overlord, and then redeployed to the Eastern Front in Hungary where it was renamed to the Feldherrnhalle Heavy Tank Battalion, part of the Division and later Panzerkorps of the same name.



So it makes sense in the theme of the doctrine being OKW troops and material being transferred from the West to the East in that regard at least.

Anyway, it could maybe replace the Command Panzer IV or the Osttruppen instead of the Observation post instead in my opinion.

Welp, that's about it. Just wanted to throw my idea out there for people to toy around with maybe for the Mobile Defense or other doctrines possibly for the Ostheer.

Cheers.

Maybe it could even have a unique toggle "Command mode" where the Commander pops out of the hatch but it decreases reload and accuracy but buffs infantry or other tanks around it? He can be shot tho which would mean it can be countered and so it's a risk-reward thing.

I mean again just more unique stuff to make it an almost entirely new unit compared to the OKW KT.

So the line-up of it's abilities would be something like:

Fire S-mine launcher (like Sturmtiger), fire smoke pods (similar to Sherman), fire flares maybe even(?), it'd be something new for Ost again.

Commander could be an upgrade that would be exclusive with the MG pintle mount and if you decide to go with him you gain the Command mode.

Blitz could be a vet 3 ability then or something.

Yeah that's why I decided to make the KT suggestion.

I'll throw in my idea here again of an Ostheer King TIger for one of their doctrines like Mobile Defense or Festung Armor

Why the King tiger? Ostheer already has a heavy tank, the Tiger. And, The tiger Ace is already very similar to the king tiger, as it has spearhead.

If any one unit is going to be swapped with OKW, should it not be the Jagdpanzer IV? It would bring a lot more diversity to the table, Ostheer does not have a 60 range tank destroyer.

Tldr
Ostheer already has a heavy tank, so why add the KT
Ostheer does not have a 60 range TD, add the Jagdpanzer IV?

Why the King tiger? Ostheer already has a heavy tank, the Tiger. And, The tiger Ace is already very similar to the king tiger, as it has spearhead.

If any one unit is going to be swapped with OKW, should it not be the Jagdpanzer IV? It would bring a lot more diversity to the table, Ostheer does not have a 60 range tank destroyer.

Tldr
Ostheer already has a heavy tank, so why add the KT
Ostheer does not have a 60 range TD, add the Jagdpanzer IV?

The OKW already had the King Tiger as well but they added the Tiger to it so why not? More faction diversity in what options you have, plus like I said it wouldn't be the same unit but a unique one with it's own new special abilities that are nowhere else to be found in Ostheer.

As far as a 60 range TD goes, then what is the Elefant/Ferdinand exactly?

But overall I agree with you on the Jagdpanzer IV, I just don't really know a lot about it, where it was deployed and so forth while with the KT there's the theme of the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion being transferred with their King Tigers from Normandy over to the Eastern Front in Hungary and it fits with Mobile Defense in that regard at least of having OKW things be transferred over to Ost.

While the Tiger Ace is pretty much just a regular Tiger but with some more HP from what I know, starts at Vet 1, costs more and has Self-repair, can't upgrade to an MG and so forth. While a King Tiger would have a bit more armor, would be slower, somewhat the same price so again, they're not going to be the same unit and they're going to fit different strategies and tactics.

If you want to use a KT as a regular Tiger I mean good luck with that lol.

Tiger is more balanced in terms of speed, armor and armament while the KT is heavier and slower, like a fortress/bunker on tracks, again fitting the "Mobile" part of "Defense".

Edit:

Forgot to mention, the King Tiger could use the Tiger/generic heavy tank voices for the Ostheer similar to the OKW Tiger, not sure if it can be done for the Jagdpanzer IV in the same way.

The OKW already had the King Tiger as well but they added the Tiger to it so why not? More faction diversity in what options you have, plus like I said it wouldn't be the same unit but a unique one with it's own new special abilities that are nowhere else to be found in Ostheer.

As far as a 60 range TD goes, then what is the Elefant/Ferdinand exactly?

But overall I agree with you on the Jagdpanzer IV, I just don't really know a lot about it, where it was deployed and so forth while with the KT there's the theme of the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion being transferred with their King Tigers from Normandy over to the Eastern Front in Hungary and it fits with Mobile Defense in that regard at least of having OKW things be transferred over to Ost.

While the Tiger Ace is pretty much just a regular Tiger but with some more HP from what I know, starts at Vet 1, costs more and has Self-repair, can't upgrade to an MG and so forth. While a King Tiger would have a bit more armor, would be slower, somewhat the same price so again, they're not going to be the same unit and they're going to fit different strategies and tactics.

If you want to use a KT as a regular Tiger I mean good luck with that lol.

Tiger is more balanced in terms of speed, armor and armament while the KT is heavier and slower, like a fortress/bunker on tracks, again fitting the "Mobile" part of "Defense".

Edit:

Forgot to mention, the King Tiger could use the Tiger/generic heavy tank voices for the Ostheer similar to the OKW Tiger, not sure if it can be done for the Jagdpanzer IV in the same way.

The Elephant is a 70 range limited to 1 heavy tank destroyer, it has very little in common with the Jagdpanzer which is 60 range and limited to one.
The king tiger and tiger do have their differences, and they are not small ones, as you have pointed out.
Seeing the Jagdpanzer swapped before the king tiger makes more sense to me though as it provides more of a difference to current Ostheer units thank the KT.


And there is no historical accuracy with the game really. There are KV2s who’s las combat was in 1943 fighting King tigers who first saw combat in 1944.

And, Ostheer has the Ostwind of which only ~53 were built, in very late 1944, as a stock unit.
Safe to say, historical accuracy is not a consideration :- p

The Elephant is a 70 range limited to 1 heavy tank destroyer, it has very little in common with the Jagdpanzer which is 60 range and limited to one.
The king tiger and tiger do have their differences, and they are not small ones, as you have pointed out.
Seeing the Jagdpanzer swapped before the king tiger makes more sense to me though as it provides more of a difference to current Ostheer units thank the KT.


And there is no historical accuracy with the game really. There are KV2s who’s las combat was in 1943 fighting King tigers who first saw combat in 1944.

And, Ostheer has the Ostwind of which only ~53 were built, in very late 1944, as a stock unit.
Safe to say, historical accuracy is not a consideration :- p

I'm guessing you mean the Jagdpanzer IV is not limited to 1 only?

And I agree with the historical accuracy, but I'm keeping it in line with the theme of the doctrine as it was requested for the New Commanders about an year or so ago as well so at least it somewhat makes sense when you choose a commander and what theme it follows.

And again, nothing against the Jagpanzer IV, but I'm not sure if it will fit with the current voice lines while for the KT it'd be easier like I've already mentioned.

And again, nothing against the Jagpanzer IV, but I'm not sure if it will fit with the current voice lines while for the KT it'd be easier like I've already mentioned.

Yeah

[...]
About the Rigel mine, we think how we could marge them or spread them across other commanders. Any idea would be welcome.
[...]
For assualt grens - their sprint from the start gave them big advantage above all infantry, which allow them to win all early fights, it was fair to lock it behind BF1.

Thx for the update, very appreciated!

About the Riegel merge:

1. Option: MOP + Riegel (new ability:251 Support Package): SR and MD

2. Option: Entrenching Tools (Osttuppen doc)+ Riegel = new ability: Defensive Tools

3. Option: Stun Grenade (Elite Doc) + Riegel =new ability:Tactical Support Tools

About the Assgren nerf:
Yes, their sprint made them strong in the early game but every unit needs a window of opportunity, right? The unit falls off so hard in the midgame and was only good against Soviets. It's doctrinal, costs 280 mp and is helpless against light vehicles. The unit has so many drawbacks that the strong start was justified imo. I just fear that the unit is dead for a long time without changes which would be a shame.
But maybe there is a way to make the unit more attractive without the problems it caused before the nerfs!

Just to throw out an idea:
- Make the unit stronger but increase the CP requirements to 1 or even 2. That would mean that Wehr players had to build t1 and the unit could not dominate the early game anymore. It would also prevent the ultra fast t2 build with flamer HT that caused so many problems.
With 1/2 CP requirements the unit would complement gren builds but not replace grens. It would have the same power level like the Jaeger Command Squad but act like a elite shock unit.

Proposed changes:
- CP requirements increased to 1 or 2
- Cost increased to 300
- Only 1 unit allowed on the battlefield
- Unit size increased to 6th men
- other buff

This is just one idea. I'm very optimistic that you guys could find some cool ideas of your own to make the unit more interesting if you decide to increase the CP requirements. I think this path offers a lot of advantages: It would prevent the problems the Assgrens caused with sprint in the early game but would still make the unit viable (and right now it's not viable.)

Maybe these ideas are helpful for the team- looking forward to the 1.1 version!

So I was going to make a mod myself to test out my idea about the Ostheer King Tiger but remembered there was already something like it in the workshop so I just decided to test out, here's the link to the mod workshop item for anybody else that's interested in trying it out for himself: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1602620176

And here's my video:


I have edited the announcement voiceline in from this video gracefully provided by GachiGasm to simulate how it would sound when actually implemented in the game: https://youtu.be/49AInridex8?t=1087

And to be honest it fits right in with all of the sounds and everything really works perfectly.

You pretty much can't tell it even comes from the OKW, well except for the announcement voice line lol.

Thx for the update, very appreciated!

About the Riegel merge:

1. Option: MOP + Riegel (new ability:251 Support Package): SR and MD

2. Option: Entrenching Tools (Osttuppen doc)+ Riegel = new ability: Defensive Tools

3. Option: Stun Grenade (Elite Doc) + Riegel =new ability:Tactical Support Tools

About the Assgren nerf:
Yes, their sprint made them strong in the early game but every unit needs a window of opportunity, right? The unit falls off so hard in the midgame and was only good against Soviets. It's doctrinal, costs 280 mp and is helpless against light vehicles. The unit has so many drawbacks that the strong start was justified imo. I just fear that the unit is dead for a long time without changes which would be a shame.
But maybe there is a way to make the unit more attractive without the problems it caused before the nerfs!

Just to throw out an idea:
- Make the unit stronger but increase the CP requirements to 1 or even 2. That would mean that Wehr players had to build t1 and the unit could not dominate the early game anymore. It would also prevent the ultra fast t2 build with flamer HT that caused so many problems.
With 1/2 CP requirements the unit would complement gren builds but not replace grens. It would have the same power level like the Jaeger Command Squad but act like a elite shock unit.

Proposed changes:
- CP requirements increased to 1 or 2
- Cost increased to 300
- Only 1 unit allowed on the battlefield
- Unit size increased to 6th men
- other buff

This is just one idea. I'm very optimistic that you guys could find some cool ideas of your own to make the unit more interesting if you decide to increase the CP requirements. I think this path offers a lot of advantages: It would prevent the problems the Assgrens caused with sprint in the early game but would still make the unit viable (and right now it's not viable.)

Maybe these ideas are helpful for the team- looking forward to the 1.1 version!

OK, So US can have as many 5 man OBERS with the strongest SMG in the game, but ost has to be restricted to 1 assault unit who has the worst smg(discounting pio/sapper) in the game. That is some insane logic bro. Yeah not restrict PG's to 1 unit too what about make m42 restricted to 1 unit aswell maybe even pioneers cause wher armor is soooooooo.... OP.