Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

didn't know about the extra vision. this might be a redeeming quality for an otherwise pretty meh "upgrade". or were you talking about the interrogation ability?

No I mean extra LOS. iirc in an attempt to make swapping from an STG to a G43 attractive pgrens got a LOS bonus with the upgrade. Grens do not get it and I don't recall if stormtroopers do or not.

Why do Panzergrenadiers even have a G43 upgrade then? Also it sounds kind of underwhelming for Grenadiers unless you apparently want them fighting at close range, which is kind of confusing given the fact the weapons appear to have scopes

Why do Panzergrenadiers even have a G43 upgrade then?

Use 2 of them in a single game and you'll find out fast.

Use 2 of them in a single game and you'll find out fast.

So you want to use 2 panzer gren squads with the upgrade which is when the difference becomes noticeable?

So you want to use 2 panzer gren squads with the upgrade which is when the difference becomes noticeable?

You'll see the difference if you get it on 1, but you'll have your jaw hit the floor when you use a pair.

They are exceptional squad wipers with G43.

I see. I just always thought it strange to switch from an stg to a g43.

The reason I made my previous comment was because one of the senior moderators made an argument that the G43 is a downgrade for the Panzergrenadier

It used to be long ago, but they were buffed a lot and given 3rd rifle since.
You give up a bit of close range DPS and gain massive long range and on the move increase, so its at very worst a side grade with more benefits then downsides.

I see. I just always thought it strange to switch from an stg to a g43.

The reason I made my previous comment was because one of the senior moderators made an argument that the G43 is a downgrade for the Panzergrenadier

I have to redact this partially due to a mistake of mine (however, yet another bug could be squashed).
On the move, the G43 is good. For cover to cover fights, they are a downgrade to equal in most scenarios

I have to redact this partially due to a mistake of mine (however, yet another bug could be squashed).
On the move, the G43 is good. For cover to cover fights, they are a downgrade to equal in most scenarios

Oh okay, so there are still situations where g43 on panzergren may be wanted. Alright as long as there is decent reason for choosing the upgrade

It used to be long ago, but they were buffed a lot and given 3rd rifle since.
You give up a bit of close range DPS and gain massive long range and on the move increase, so its at very worst a side grade with more benefits then downsides.

It is more like you give up a lot of close to mid range DPS to gain a okay to decent DPS increase to long range and okay to very good when moving.

I'd say it is a side grade for sure, but it is not a clear upgrade as you say. Overall the upgrade a weird design for PGrens when looking at the additional abilities

Oh okay, so there are still situations where g43 on panzergren may be wanted. Alright as long as there is decent reason for choosing the upgrade

Yes there are. I probably did not use them right since I thought they'd be better long range fighters, but they are actually worse than Grenadiers.

Their niche is flanking and cutting retreat paths, otherwise you have better options.

It is more like you give up a lot of close to mid range DPS to gain a okay to decent DPS increase to long range and okay to very good when moving.

Eh, depends how you want to look at it.
6 DPS for any other infantry is quite a lot, but for PGs that's ~10% of their close range dps, but more with range increase, but that is compensated by really incomparably higher on the move DPS especially at longer ranges, so unless you constantly fight on ranges below 20-25 and never have to move in or move at all, g43 outperforms stgs.

If you want to ram rifles into opponent and use it from very close range and approach under cover of smoke or los blockers, stgs will be better.

I'd say it is a side grade for sure, but it is not a clear upgrade as you say. Overall the upgrade a weird design for PGrens when looking at the additional abilities

I've also said its a side grade, but to me, as I have said, what you give up is well worth it vs what you gain, given more mobile nature of PGs, where they utilize g43 form most.

It is more like you give up a lot of close to mid range DPS to gain a okay to decent DPS increase to long range and okay to very good when moving.

I'd say it is a side grade for sure, but it is not a clear upgrade as you say. Overall the upgrade a weird design for PGrens when looking at the additional abilities

Its not weird. It makes your PGs better against pretty much every single type of inf enemy can throw at you. Yes you trade close range DPS, but at the same time your PGs gaining the ability to always engage at their terms.

You want to keep distance against close range squads? You can do it + you have a grende. You want to close in vs long range squads? You can do it. You want to chase someone or push? You can do it.

You are looking at raw DPS and for some reason, you think that huge close range DPS is somehow better, then over-all DPS. Also you shoudnt forget that G43 is a rifle and it has tendency to drop models with few good RNG rolls, unlike StGs.

Eh, depends how you want to look at it.
6 DPS for any other infantry is quite a lot, but for PGs that's ~10% of their close range dps, but more with range increase, but that is compensated by really incomparably higher on the move DPS especially at longer ranges, so unless you constantly fight on ranges below 20-25 and never have to move in or move at all, g43 outperforms stgs.

If you want to ram rifles into opponent and use it from very close range and approach under cover of smoke or los blockers, stgs will be better.


I've also said its a side grade, but to me, as I have said, what you give up is well worth it vs what you gain, given more mobile nature of PGs, where they utilize g43 form most.

You should specify the range you are talking about since it varies quite a lot.
The moving DPS is about 1-2 DPS higher at close to mid and 5-8 DPS higher at long range. But bear in mind there is no engagement at 35 meters in the game, so you will never gain those 8 DPS advantage over StGs. You realistically get ~5 in the best situations and 1-3 in all others. Standing still for a second at mid range already compensates the lost DPS that you "paid" while closing in.
In an assault, the moving DPS advantage (not moving DPS itself) will not benefit you as much. You're running into enemy positions, but the way the upgrade currently works is to diminish the advantage of itself by doing so.

Your argument also works the other way around: Unless you're constantly moving at range 30+ or chasing retreating squads, the G43s don't have an awful lot going for them.

I think the upgrade would benefit if G43s PGrens got either a clear long range role (however they'd clash with LMG Grens) and/or the abilities were more focused on supporting an assault for other mobile units such as G43 Grens.

Its not weird. It makes your PGs better against pretty much every single type of inf enemy can throw at you. Yes you trade close range DPS, but at the same time your PGs gaining the ability to always engage at their terms.

You want to keep distance against close range squads? You can do it + you have a grende. You want to close in vs long range squads? You can do it. You want to chase someone or push? You can do it.

You are looking at raw DPS and for some reason, you think that huge close range DPS is somehow better, then over-all DPS. Also you shoudnt forget that G43 is a rifle and it has tendency to drop models with few good RNG rolls, unlike StGs.

What I think is weird is that pushing in (which is the point of the G43) is actually hurting your DPS compared to StGs.
You can sprint away from danger, but given the offensive nature of most G43 commanders plus the fact that all other squads that have a sprint come with superior close range DPS (comparison here is twofold, once is G43 vs StG and then close vs long DPS) this makes this ability weird. Sprint on normal PGrens would actually be worth way more than on the G43 version. But sprinting into battle is something you want to generally avoid (flanking MGs etc not included) if you paid for the G43s, otherwise you could have just stayed with StGs.

I am not arguing that there is no niche for G43 PGrens and that the abilities are useless in all scenarios, but that the bundle that the upgrade gets you contradicts its own function to some extend.

The squad should have a clear strength and a clear weakness. They have a clear strength at long range combat, but if their "weakness" is close range, they should not have sprint. Otherwise positioning is not as important.

I'd say it is a side grade for sure, but it is not a clear upgrade as you say

To be honest I think ideally most if not all weapon upgrades should have been like that. Perhaps mainline infantry being excluded. Weapon upgrades should be tactical and interesting choices, each with their own pros and cons, not no brainers. But that's a discussion for another topic.

G43 Panzergrenadiers are good enough:
- Good dps at any range, so opponent can't exploit lack of long range dps as well anymore and there's not nearly as much pressure to close in.
- Better at chasing with good moving dps.
- 20% sight bonus.
- Interrogation.

It's not as high a priority as getting lmgs on Grens, but it's still a good idea in the mid/late game when it gets increasingly harder to close the distance and more vehicles start popping up.

They're also a good replacement for wiped Grens, as they're much more verstatile than lmg Grens, if you can forgive their lack of a snare.

To be honest I think ideally all weapon upgrades should have been like that. Perhaps mainline infantry being excluded. Weapon upgrades should be tactical and interesting choices, each with their own pros and cons, not no brainers.

I fully agree on this, but this would require reworks beyond what Relic would allow and would be smart at this point.

Weapon upgrades currently kick start units in the late game that were bought as replacements for a wipe. I am fine with G43 PGrens being a side grade, but a side grade should change the role. I don't think the G43 upgrade really does that. G43s PGrens are still the squad that charges into the enemy position. They're still your best bet as OST to cut into retreating units. The sprint ability that is part of the upgrade partially contradicts the weapon that is the main reason to upgrade. G43s are good on the move but not THAT much better that they would offer you a really different option when assaulting because this advantage fades once you don't move (which will also happen during an assault). They are worse on static defense but also not THAT much worse that it would change the way I use PGrens. The upgrade does not really offer a hugely different play style.

That makes it boring. G43s transform Grenadiers from static defenders into a mobile offensive squad. Pgrens get changed from a mobile offensive squad in a slightly different mobile offensive squad.

...The sprint ability that is part of the upgrade partially contradicts the weapon that is the main reason to upgrade...

I generally agree with some of your point but I have to point out that sprint comes from camo and not G43. The combo is available in Jagger infatry though one of the most popular 1vs1 commanders.

I generally agree with some of your point but I have to point out that sprint comes from camo and not G43. The combo is available in Jagger infatry though one of the most popular 1vs1 commanders.

That's true.
My bad, I think I played the Jager Infantry commander too much recently...

That's true.
My bad, I think I played the Jager Infantry commander too much recently...

No problem it happens .