Lefh Counter Barrage Controversy

It's simple, it should not track without LoS. /thread.

I agree with their sentiment that the "CB requires no micro" argument is totally overblown. It saves you a grand total of three clicks and some map awareness while targeting whatever it wants, which might be a lone mortar squad, when a well placed regular barrage in a target rich environment would usually yield better results. And something being micro-less isn't really the best argument against it, because autofire for many units (mortars etc) is equally micro-less.

I would like to replace but, but actually because I think the ability is meh (it won't hit its intended target most of the time), not overpowered or whatever.

I agree. Changing the vet 1 will result in a buff for every halfway decent Lefh player. The only viable target for counter barrage is a Katy and maybe B4 anyway. Single mortars/pak howies arent worth it, Priest and Sexton cant get one-shot and losing ml-20 frees popcop for good units.

Imo remove counter barrage. But not cause its op, but cause its only useful for really low micro players.
Just give the Lefh a singular shot like the B4 on vet 1 and watch the steam forum burn.

I agree. Changing the vet 1 will result in a buff for every halfway decent Lefh player. The only viable target for counter barrage is a Katy and maybe B4 anyway. Single mortars/pak howies arent worth it, Priest and Sexton cant get one-shot and losing ml-20 frees popcop for good units.

Imo remove counter barrage. But not cause its op, but cause its only useful for really low micro players.
Just give the Lefh a singular shot like the B4 on vet 1 and watch the steam forum burn.

I'm not sure this place (from a spillover) could withstand firepower of that magnitude Can you imagine the complaints of capping squads being taken out by precision strikes?

I do agree that the best course is just to leave it as is. Every change I can think of either just outright cripples the gun or is somehow worse than most of the feedback to the current CB version.

I wonder when people will sit back again and finally realize that the point of this thread is foremost about the tracking mechanic, and the whole CB design is secondary.

He thinks you can take reddit mobs at face value

I wonder when people will sit back again and finally realize that the point of this thread is foremost about the tracking mechanic, and the whole CB design is secondary.

I think it's the other way around. CB is bad first off, but the counter argument has always been to move. The fact that that isn't the case and that CB can still gettcha is the icing on the cake.

Sander says it only saves you 3 clicks (each and every single time any sort of shell goes up in the air mind you) but no amount of clicks I have ever made have allowed me to follow units through the fog of war. It requires no effort AND it cheats but the cheat is on top of requiring nothing from the player, not secondary to it.

I think it's the other way around. CB is bad first off, but the counter argument has always been to move. The fact that that isn't the case and that CB can still gettcha is the icing on the cake.

Sander says it only saves you 3 clicks (each and every single time any sort of shell goes up in the air mind you) but no amount of clicks I have ever made have allowed me to follow units through the fog of war. It requires no effort AND it cheats but the cheat is on top of requiring nothing from the player, not secondary to it.

People here are getting almost outraged if Sanders or someone else says that tracking is only an issue in very rare circumstances and then instantly insinuate that stating this equals defending it and most of all defending the whole CB itself. It's just nuts.


Back to topic, but I can only say what I have already said before:
The thread started out as purely focusing on the tracking. It then widened a bit to CB in general which is fine by me. But many here start mixing both issues into one another to somehow "prove" their point.

Most Allied units barrage for quite some time. I have not tested it in game, but judging from what Elchino wrote they will usually be counter barraged during their barrage or at the end of it. And assuming that the barrage finishes and the Katy/... starts moving before the LeFH is set up, there is a decent chance that the Katy will be in the cone half way, so the LeFH barrages an empty spot half way on the map. If your vehicle is still in range at this time. There's a lot of conditions and in most circumstances, shift queueing your unit back to base will do exactly what is should do.

Is it still possible that you drive your Katy back to base to be barraged there? Yes, but rarely.
Is this whole tracking behaviour stupid? Absolutely.
Is it worth the drama? Nope.


This behaviour has only been discovered just now. But suddenly this is used to state that CB is OP because it tracked (no personal statement of mine on CB intended here). But this OPness went unnoticed for years, so it probably is not as a huge deal as some make it out to be.


So to sum it up:
Tracking is very stupid, CB a bit stupid, LeFH ability could use a redesign and all of this is blown out of proportion.

This behaviour has only been discovered just now. But suddenly this is used to state that CB is OP because it tracked (no personal statement of mine on CB intended here). But this OPness went unnoticed for years, so it probably is not as a huge deal as some make it out to be.

Or CB was always dumb and this just pushes it over the top. Imo the only real issue here is ml20 vs leFH. I have a much harder time killing leFHs with ml20s than vice versa, and I'm not sure why there should be such a difference. Unless that's just my experience

I voted 'Yes' for tuning but my vote would really go to 'remove CB' if it was there.

Laying sandbags? Gonna have to use the new terrain grasper tool to fill each one individually. Don't overfill them or get any grass in there!

I like where youre going with this but what if we invert it. Make COH2 units have one ability you click and now the unit is on auto-target and auto-move. Sure, micro is a hallmark of RTSs but having to pan around the map and press two or three buttons is just so much harder than clicking and forgetting. I would like to see more of that. Maybe a button I can press that makes my sherman auto toggle AI shells when in range of them so I don't really have to spend any attention on it. Shouldn't have to tbh.

If we're taking well organized teams into consideration, then vet 1 LeFHs do not exist. Or any static howitzers for that matter.



And what you are describing is nothing that a regular barrage couldn't do (better). On small chokepoint maps you don't even need recon to guess where to put a barrage with maximum effect. Putting down a regular barrage here would take 2 seconds, and you'd be guaranteed to hit that target rich area, instead of your LeFH potentially going after a lone mortar.

Dude come on. Nothing a regular barrage couldnt do (better)? It literally does what a regular barrage does except with no attention and resource cost.

If regular barrage is always better, revert the pak howie and scott nerfs seeing as you specifically nerfed them to become only effective when barraging because it was too oppressive and too good a unit to not have to micro. Such double standards lmao.

It literally does what a regular barrage does except with no attention and resource cost.

It will randomly target an indirect fire unit. That could be a Katyusha backing away at the other side of the map or a lone mortar. Could be a ZiS firing a barrage on the frontline. That's fine, but I would rather manually target my barrage and hit concentrated enemy positions and inflict more damage. It only takes a low amount of micro and the damage potential is significantly higher in most cases.

If regular barrage is always better, revert the pak howie and scott nerfs seeing as you specifically nerfed them to become only effective when barraging because it was too oppressive and too good a unit to not have to micro. Such double standards lmao.

Both of those units had their effectiveness moved from auto fire to the player targeted barrage. Isn't that exactly what you are advocating for the LeFH?

I really wonder how many people start to learn that for often than not, player targetted is way better and the only reason why CB is so effective is that they played against people who didn't know how it works?

If we're taking well organized teams into consideration, then vet 1 LeFHs do not exist. Or any static howitzers for that matter.

And what you are describing is nothing that a regular barrage couldn't do (better). On small chokepoint maps you don't even need recon to guess where to put a barrage with maximum effect. Putting down a regular barrage here would take 2 seconds, and you'd be guaranteed to hit that target rich area, instead of your LeFH potentially going after a lone mortar.

I mean, I get your argument, on the other hand I don't fully agree with this.

The howitzers are team game units only, so we're also talking about team games only.
Many arty units have to be at/near the front line (meaning where all the other troops are) to fire effectively. So the CB will usually target an important spot. Even if it is not the front line, it will be the reinforcement route.

And yes, it might target suboptimal points. A good player can do better barrages into the FOV. But the issue is that CB leads to having literally zero downtime. Even a good player will forget to use the barrage ability for some time after it becomes available again. CB will fire without fail, because in team games there are 1-2 barrages per minute somewhere on the map. And while there might be differences at the very top tier level, CB level the skill gap between "bad" and "average" players, simply because micro and game knowledge are limited resources here. 5 okay barrages are as good as 4 good ones, especially if I don't need to think about this unit anymore.

Or CB was always dumb and this just pushes it over the top. Imo the only real issue here is ml20 vs leFH. I have a much harder time killing leFHs with ml20s than vice versa, and I'm not sure why there should be such a difference. Unless that's just my experience

I just want the people discussing here to calm down and make a decent discussion again. The last page was quite wild.

It is not like we got a recent direct/indirect buff that now makes it OP or that a new glitch was discovered that can be heavily abused. We're still seeing the same LeFH and CB as we have seen for the last 8 years.

Dude come on. Nothing a regular barrage couldnt do (better)? It literally does what a regular barrage does except with no attention and resource cost.

If regular barrage is always better, revert the pak howie and scott nerfs seeing as you specifically nerfed them to become only effective when barraging because it was too oppressive and too good a unit to not have to micro. Such double standards lmao.

it's kind of funny that the whole discussion about cb in general tends to revolve about micro tax and how it is somehow overpowered because you don't need to click twice to place a barrage manually.

this is not the main issue with cb unless you have an apm in the single-digits. you pay for that tiny bit of convenience with not being able to barrage WHERE and WHEN you want, and that is a huge trade-off in most scenarios.
the only reason cb (and i'm talking about that of the lefh only since it sucks for everything else) could be considered too powerful or even op is that it deals 25% more damage per shot and has significantly less scatter penalties than the regular barrage. this alone is the reason the lefh can and will out-duel its soviet counterparts, not the fact that it'll auto target.
that being said, the 'tracking' bug/feature is an exception of course, as it will - sometimes - allow you to track mobile arty in the FoW, which is not possible otherwise. this can arguably give an unfair advantage and might deserve to be looked at, but it's not the gamebreaking feature people make it out to be.

this is not the main issue with cb unless you have an apm in the single-digits. you pay for that tiny bit of convenience with not being able to barrage WHERE and WHEN you want, and that is a huge trade-off in most scenarios.

I've already pointed it out in response to Sander's, but I think the issue with CB is that the micro advantage is very different.
Higher tier players can more easily track down the cooldowns, know instantly where to place it etc. But the majority of us scrubs does not. I personally keep forgetting to use my arty from time to time. If it just sits around for one minute twice a match I could have fit in a full barrage.
At the mid to low level game play, the reward/micro curve just flattens. A mid level Soviet player will still need to not forget, track the CD and aim his ML20, a mid level LeFH player does not have to.
The trade off of this ability is that it might not hit as perfectly. In mid/low tier CoH2, a place barrage would not hit perfectly anyway. So there is no trade off anymore, just the plus side that you don't forget to use it anymore. That's what in my opinion is "the most wrong" with this ability.

I've already pointed it out in response to Sander's, but I think the issue with CB is that the micro advantage is very different.
Higher tier players can more easily track down the cooldowns, know instantly where to place it etc. But the majority of us scrubs does not. I personally keep forgetting to use my arty from time to time. If it just sits around for one minute twice a match I could have fit in a full barrage.
At the mid to low level game play, the reward/micro curve just flattens. A mid level Soviet player will still need to not forget, track the CD and aim his ML20, a mid level LeFH player does not have to.
The trade off of this ability is that it might not hit as perfectly. In mid/low tier CoH2, a place barrage would not hit perfectly anyway. So there is no trade off anymore, just the plus side that you don't forget to use it anymore. That's what in my opinion is "the most wrong" with this ability.

well i guess you got a point here, and as far as i'm concerned the cb ability could as well be changed so that it needs to be manually activated each time you want to use it, a bit like how the brit version works. but i'd wager that wouldn't stop the lefh from wiping other static arty pieces left and right since the superior damage output would still apply.
however, if this is what it takes to make cb less oppressive in mid- to low level play then i'm all for it and i don't think top tier players will be much affected by such a change anyways.

I dont see how CB gives you only clicks savings really. CB start stracking and shooting, the second enemy arty unit start firing. Tracking ability, as shown in the video, is cool but your LeFH wont be facing frontline in a wrong direction.

Your LeFH will be facing the front line. Not a single arty unit in the game, be it katy\cali\SPGs\Mortars wont be able to finish their barrage before LeFH start firing. Meaning that either enemy will cancel and waste barrage or he will potentually lose a unit.

In other words, IF your LeFH facing in a right directrion (or close to it), it will immidiatly fire at the enemy arty unit, the second it use its abilities.

Sure good players can do it mannuly BUT good players will see enemy arty unit only if it hit something, if it just fire somewhere without hitting anything, you wont see it. Sure you can hear the sound, you can calculate where it stays in FOW, but you cant do it faster then CB. It doesnt matter how good player is, its just not possible.

And on a side note, after you counter pottential hight value targets with CB, you can just disable it.

Ppl here acting like its a one time ability, which if activated cant be turned off. Its not, its situational. And I'm pretty sure, even a good top players are using it, when there is enouth reason to do it. Thats the main concern.

Sure noob will activate it and forget about it, good player will activate it if he sees that it makes sence, if its not he will deactivate it and fire mannually.

It is not like we got a recent direct/indirect buff that now makes it OP or that a new glitch was discovered that can be heavily abused. We're still seeing the same LeFH and CB as we have seen for the last 8 years.

I don't see the point here though. I'm saying it was always dumb, so yeah nothing needed to happen in the last 8 years?

I think almost all loiter abilities that attack are hilariously OP still, and they used to be even worse. Does the fact that they haven't gotten better recently make them not OP? No, not really

The thing that makes those abilities OP imo is very similar to CB (though loiters are much worse imo): A computer is doing a bunch of work for you

Hi there. I've just come across this thread. This is my thought process with the LeFH's ability to track


And thank you for posting my test video to bring light onto the issue my friends and I discovered. Appreciate it. I welcome a discussion.

An encounter with the tracking in a live game

British Counter Battery to compare

The shell scatter as requested to test by /u/gtacleveland