General USF Commander overhaul

I don't see any reason to. Airborne is a really good commander.
The drops keep the other three top tier abilities in check while still being good abilities themselves.

aye, but its effectively a 4 slot commander because you will have access to one or the other. nothing says the 5th ability would have to be a pershing or anything of that caliber, even a recon pass would be a nice addition (minor because the usf already have major recon, but handy to have in the pocket)
at any rate, i was more responding to your dilemma of bundling and was offering a potential solution should the bundle be the only thing that as holding you back

Add thompson upgrade to Rifleman company.

aye, but its effectively a 4 slot commander because you will have access to one or the other. nothing says the 5th ability would have to be a pershing or anything of that caliber, even a recon pass would be a nice addition (minor because the usf already have major recon, but handy to have in the pocket)
at any rate, i was more responding to your dilemma of bundling and was offering a potential solution should the bundle be the only thing that as holding you back

I think the bonus of being able to share them with teammates is enough to offset the fact that you'll unlock one anyway. I always felt airborne is more of a team game cmdr even without sharing dropped weapons. Using either of those weapons as a soviet player is hella fun, especially if you went t1

Good solution if they ever do feel like bundling them. A recon run like you said or maybe a pinning strafe would be a good new ability without being too much

Well firstly, I'm not really sure its possible to make X unit fire slower if there is another one near it.

I'm saying give it longer cooldown/reload at short rage compared long range.

Well firstly, I'm not really sure its possible to make X unit fire slower if there is another one near it. It might be doable by creating some sort of invisible auras, but it sounds way complicated to begin with.

And secondly, ROF isnt the main thing making Jackson so good. Its accuracy on the move, speed, turret rotation, turret iself, range. Pretty much any aspect of Jackson (aside from armor) is making Jackson so powerfull compared to other TDs. I mean, if you litteraly wont make Jackson ROF x2 slower (so PIV will shoot 2 times, while jackson will shot 1) it wont change anything.

But even with such changes, ppl will just kite with jackson. It will make it harded to micro, but ultimatly wont change anything for a good players, just make it really frustrating to use for mediocre players.

Not really. M36 used to have more damage and lower ROF so can start by rolling back to those numbers if one want to.

It is an argument as long as the facts leading to the argument exist. Okay lets pretend it doesn't exist, so that you don't have to apologize for beeing rude without reason. Being a top30 player and having a greater range comes with the responsibility to be more of a paragon, but that are just my two cents as a lower ranked player.

So back to topic: I do think that Calliope + 76mm "blobs" will be countered by JPIV, STuG or Panther play, while Jackson doesn't get countered by them. So there is a downside to the AI value of the 76mm (if compared to M36).
So yeah to conclude, thats the thing about decision making, all choices come with a downside. But atm there is just no decison making at USF nondoc T4 tank roster. You need AI, go for M4A3, you need AT go for Jackson...



Both is not true.

Radio net isn't as potent as you said because it is bugged and gives the bonus only once. Yeah I do think a blob of vet1 76mm Shermans could be really strong if it would work correctly but that would be true for normal Shermans or E8s too.
Their shells aren't really more universal than the shells of a normal M4A3 as you said. Their shells are identically versus infantry and just have some penetration more. Same penetration at close distance, 10 penetration more at medium distance and 20 at long distance. At long, where the difference is the greatest, this is 66% penetration in comparison to 55% of M4A3 versus a regular Ostheer PZIV. Your shells will still bounce on a regulary basis. The biggest difference is that they shoot about 1,5 seconds faster of course. The shells itself are pretty similar, so either both are universal or none of them. If you want to go for high penetration you have to switch like the M4A3 switches for HE, but your main cannon loose its AI value by doing so and the switch takes roughly about 6 seconds if I remind correctly.
A 76mm is more expensive of course to make up for better RoF and slightly better penetration with standard shell.

76mm has vet bonuses that come from the T-34/76 and that are superior to other Shermans. At vet 3 the ROF of of the Sherman is 4.89 while of the 76mm Sherman 3.26! .

Add to that radio net and even "combined arm" for more fun.

Nobody wants to go back to the dark ages of the Jackson being the ultimate rng machine for late game usf, absolutely nobody. Just drop that idea of nerfing Jackson, mate.

76mm has vet bonuses that come from the T-34/76 and that are superior to other Shermans. At vet 3 the ROF of of the Sherman is 4.89 while of the 76mm Sherman 3.26! .

Add to that radio net and even "combined arm" for more fun.

I wouldn't say they are far superior, because the 76mm gets no +30% accuracy bonus like the other Sherman variants. This is especially important while beeing on the move.

About radio net and vet reload bonus: The other Shermans with lower RoF profit more from radio net 10% less reload in numbers because they have a longer reload. 76mm 30% reload vet bonus is pretty much the same reload reduction as 20% reload vet bonus at E8 in numbers. When adding radio net, the E8 has the highest reload reduction in seconds of all Shermans. The MA43 and the 76mm come out quite even if you combine the boni of vet and radio net.

Combined Arms: Onlx exists at Mechanized, which has the combination of 76mm and Combined arms right now too, and at Heavy Cavalary. But at Heavy Cavalary it affects all other tanks like Jackson, Pershing or M4A3 in the same way. It is a straight buff to all units. Since it isn't exclusively to 76mm I don't see the point here. Its fun of course but what is has to do with making the 76mm available nondoc?

I think the bonus of being able to share them with teammates is enough to offset the fact that you'll unlock one anyway. I always felt airborne is more of a team game cmdr even without sharing dropped weapons. Using either of those weapons as a soviet player is hella fun, especially if you went t1

Good solution if they ever do feel like bundling them. A recon run like you said or maybe a pinning strafe would be a good new ability without being too much

I don't disagree. I'm not of the mind the commander NEEDS changed, but if it is that's the route I'd take. The commander looks weak when compared to some of the recently tweaked commanders (5 vehicles and 3 abilities for plus abilities on some of the vehicles example) and as I said, it's basically a 4 slot commander

Nobody wants to go back to the dark ages of the Jackson being the ultimate rng machine for late game usf, absolutely nobody. Just drop that idea of nerfing Jackson, mate.

There was more contributing than just ROF and damage. Accuracy and pen also play a role. As long as the Jackson remains unrefined it overshadows a huge number of doctrinal abilities.

You wouldn't build a doctrinal t34/76 that requires a full tech if you have non doc 85s outside the slimmest of circumstances, the same goes for the number of Sherman variants and the m10. They have no place because the Jackson does all that and more.

Even the su76 from the old soviet design with split t3/4 was competing directly with the su85 who did the job a whole lot better-as a result we never saw the su76 and CERTAINLY wouldn't have picked a commander with it if we still had to build the su85 building...

I wouldn't say they are far superior, because the 76mm gets no +30% accuracy bonus like the other Sherman variants. This is especially important while beeing on the move.

Not really.

USF vehicle already have only 25% penalty on the move and on top of that the 76mm has the option of the HAVP that have higher accuracy than the vanilla Sherman.

One can always stop when shooting to avoid moving penalties.

Collision hits than are quite often in sort range further reduce the importance of the accuracy bonus.

About radio net and vet reload bonus: The other Shermans with lower RoF profit more from radio net 10% less reload in numbers because they have a longer reload.

Not when the modifier is multiplied, the effect on TTk of faster ROF bonuses are the same.

Even if was true again 76mm would profit more due to HVAP.

76mm 30% reload vet bonus is pretty much the same reload reduction as 20% reload vet bonus at E8 in numbers. When adding radio net, the E8 has the highest reload reduction in seconds of all Shermans. The MA43 and the 76mm come out quite even if you combine the boni of vet and radio net.

Have you tested this in game? because the number do not add up.

Easy8 gets *80% reload at vet 3 and should have a ROF of 5.29 without radio net.
76mm get *70% at vet 2 and should have a ROF of 3.26 and 4.52 with HVAP without radio net so I do not see how Easy8 has higher ROF. (unless something is bugged)

Combined Arms: Onlx exists at Mechanized, which has the combination of 76mm and Combined arms right now too, and at Heavy Cavalary. But at Heavy Cavalary it affects all other tanks like Jackson, Pershing or M4A3 in the same way. It is a straight buff to all units. Since it isn't exclusively to 76mm I don't see the point here.

76mm has one of the fastest firing guns and with HVAP it has excellent penetration/accuracy.

Its fun of course but what is has to do with making the 76mm available nondoc?

I have little issues of making 76mm stock and M4A3 doctrinal, I have actually suggested that myself but no in its current state. The unit is simply extremely cost efficient.

Have you tested this in game? because the number do not add up.

Easy8 gets *80% reload at vet 3 and should have a ROF of 5.29 without radio net.
76mm get *70% at vet 2 and should have a ROF of 3.26 and 4.52 with HVAP without radio net so I do not see how Easy8 has higher ROF. (unless something is bugged)

What he is saying is that both EZ8 and 76mm save about 1,3 seconds due to veterancy.

And in absolute terms, the EZ8 profits more from radio net than the 76mm due to higher reload time.

What he is saying is that both EZ8 and 76mm save about 1,3 seconds due to veterancy.

Sherman 76mm
AP from 4.55->3.26 = 1.29 gain
HVAP from 6.35->4.52 = 1.83 gain

Easy8
From 6.55->5.29 = 1.26 gain

I don't see how.

And in absolute terms, the EZ8 profits more from radio net than the 76mm due to higher reload time.

Again I don't see how.

76mm has one of the fastest reload with AP and in "absolute" numbers one of the highest gains with HVAP. No matter how one choose to look at (and one should look thing in %) the 76mm gain more both from vet and radio net.

76mm has very good base stat and scale better than other Shermans. Imo vet 3 76mm with radio net are borderline broken.

One has also to keep in mind that the reload bonus is vet 2 for 76mm and vet 3 Easy8.
(unless there is bug in radio net resulting to different bonus in game)

I don't see how.

Just to be clear, Stormjäger always talked about the „universal“ shell which would be way to strong. HVAP wasn’t part of the discussion, it would get clearly the highest reduction in RoF with vet and radio net but wouldn’t have any AI value at all.

“Universal shell” with radio net + full vetted (stacked):

E8: -1,76 seconds
76mm: -1,59 seconds
M4A3: -1,62 seconds

I said in my original post E8 gets the most out of it, while 76mm and M4A3 get out pretty even. Whats wrong about that? If you subtract 10% and then 20% (M4A3/E8) or 30% (for 76mm) that are the numbers I do get.

But the comparison was never between E8 and 76mm, this was just an example to show that longer reload can result in getting more reduction in absolute numbers with less reload reduction bonus. It was about the combo of Jackson+M4A3 versus multiple 76mm, since Stormjäger claimed they would be op with "universal" shells especially in combination with Calliope.

76mm has one of the fastest reload with AP and in "absolute" numbers one of the highest gains with HVAP.

Never questioned that.

76mm has very good base stat and scale better than other Shermans. Imo vet 3 76mm with radio net are borderline broken.

Overall E8 is the best Sherman (if we leave aside dozer blade upgrade for M4A3). Its higher survivability (armor+hp) results in having the highest chance to get to vet3 actually and stay there.

One has also to keep in mind that the reload bonus is vet 2 for 76mm and vet 3 Easy8.
(unless there is bug in radio net resulting to different bonus in game)

Shermans/E8 get +30% accuracy at vet2 which isn't as bad as you want to tell us. In addition I wish you good luck by stop move a "blob" of vet3 76mm which have a firerate about 3 seconds. Staggering movement with total micro control, sounds totally realistic if you ask me.

Sherman 76mm
AP from 4.55->3.26 = 1.29 gain
HVAP from 6.35->4.52 = 1.83 gain

Easy8
From 6.55->5.29 = 1.26 gain

I don't see how.

?
You just calculated it yourself. Both tanks save ~1,3 secs due to veterancy.

Again I don't see how.

76mm has one of the fastest reload with AP and in "absolute" numbers one of the highest gains with HVAP. No matter how one choose to look at (and one should look thing in %) the 76mm gain more both from vet and radio net.

76mm has very good base stat and scale better than other Shermans. Imo vet 3 76mm with radio net are borderline broken.

One has also to keep in mind that the reload bonus is vet 2 for 76mm and vet 3 Easy8.
(unless there is bug in radio net resulting to different bonus in game)

I am just explaining what he said. And getting 10% off of a longer reload is simply a larger number than 10% of a shorter reload.

I agree that those stats should best be looked at in relative numbers. However it is still important that marginal benefit is on the side of long duration (in our case reload) units. Those have higher impact shells. They have a higher benefit of getting an additional shell out before retreating, that they otherwise could not.
But obviously this is a very theoretical point. Raw numbers are easier to quantify, but we still should not forget about other effects.

The thing is, 76mm have universal shells, unlike the 75mm, and have crazy rof with radio net. This tank is also basically a premium medium. The issue is that you are megacharging the USF roster by allowing them this option. This tank is way too powerful to be stock, especially combined with a CalliOP. The reason is that it deletes any pak40/rak counterplay. Consider this, you have 2-3 76mms and a CalliOP lategame. Your opponent has chosen to rely on double pak40s. You use the tactical support recon plane, spot the double pak40s, barrage them with CalliOP, then charge in with your premium mediums and infantry. This is way too powerful. If USF in live tries to do that, they'll have to use the 75mm M4s that are stock, which need to switch shells, adding a heavy micro and rof burden, as well as are significantly weaker against enemy medium tanks. 2-3 76mm M4s can easily beat 2 P4Js, while 2-3 75mm M4s will probably lose.

Theoretical situation, sure, but the point is the 76mm is too good a vehicle to be stock, especially since it would allow USF to get other powerful doctrine picks such as Tactical Support.




Please don't turn pathfinder beacons into forward retreat points, the Soviet Airbourne ones are already borderline game breaking abuse in 2v2. Just limit them to 1-2 on the field at all times and they're fine.

Sorry but I think its a joke for anyone to say "the 76mm is *too powerful* to be non doctrinal. Have you looked at some of the non doc rosters in this game? 76mm would get slapped around by plenty of non doc armor on the other side. It would be much healthier playing the faction to get an actual non doc premium medium like all other factions do. USF is fucking cancer to play right now because theyre so pigeonholed into the same boring build orders with barely any flexibility

And no, putting zooks on your rifles or on your major is not "flexibility" before anyone comes in with that one lol.

Just to be clear, Stormjäger always talked about the „universal“ shell which would be way to strong. HVAP wasn’t part of the discussion, it would get clearly the highest reduction in RoF with vet and radio net but wouldn’t have any AI value at all.

“Universal shell” with radio net + full vetted (stacked):

E8: -1,76 seconds
76mm: -1,59 seconds
M4A3: -1,62 seconds

I said in my original post E8 gets the most out of it, while 76mm and M4A3 get out pretty even. Whats wrong about that? If you subtract 10% and then 20% (M4A3/E8) or 30% (for 76mm) that are the numbers I do get.

But the comparison was never between E8 and 76mm, this was just an example to show that longer reload can result in getting more reduction in absolute numbers with less reload reduction bonus. It was about the combo of Jackson+M4A3 versus multiple 76mm, since Stormjäger claimed they would be op with "universal" shells especially in combination with Calliope.


Never questioned that.

Are you number from in game tests or theoretical?

Bottom line remains that 76mm Sherman fire faster than other Shermans regardless how each unit gains in "absolute number".

Overall E8 is the best Sherman (if we leave aside dozer blade upgrade for M4A3). Its higher survivability (armor+hp) results in having the highest chance to get to vet3 actually and stay there.

You are entitled to your opinion but I doubt people will agree with you. On the other hand it is more expensive.

Shermans/E8 get +30% accuracy at vet2 which isn't as bad as you want to tell us. In addition I wish you good luck by stop move a "blob" of vet3 76mm which have a firerate about 3 seconds. Staggering movement with total micro control, sounds totally realistic if you ask me.

If you one is fighting vehicles HVAP is already more accurate than Sherman gun.

If you one fighting soft target accuracy does not mean a thing.

Bottom line is that currently 76mm can face PzIV on equal grounds.

If anything is made nondoc, it should be the M10 imo, not the 76. But this would probably require a larger rework that gives USF a true T3-T4 split. (M10+Sherman as T3, Jackson+Arty as T4 after upgrade) Such a change would work well with USF's light vehicle focus, giving them a cheap TD to counter P4 timings when USF goes into light vehicles.

I've tried and tried to like the Priest, but its just a bad Calliope. Even with 3 barrages for every 2, I am lucky to get half as many kills as I get on the Calliope. Removing ToT Barrage would kill the doc. If anything, Priest/Sexton need a rework.

Armor Company's 240mm Barrage is arguably the worst Arty Barrage in the game. Additionally, the 105 Sherman needs a small buff. (simplest is just 10 fuel cheaper) I'd argue this doc should be split into 2 separate docs, but I don't know how big a pass the balance team is willing to do.

Airborne is in a good spot outside of the P-47s. Despite the various complaints, I think the split weapons are a good way to give players the choice of what officer tech they want to choose. The P-47 strike itself though is overpriced an ineffective compared to the JU-87s.

Recon Support's Raid Tactics needs an overhaul. (or just straight up replaced) Fast Capping abilities are fairly weak in general, but a vehicle capping version is especially weak in USF. The Greyhound is likewise a mess, coming out 4 minutes after a Luchs while being arguably a weaker unit.

Mechanized is honestly overloaded. Units cost a full doc point, and Mechanized cheats this rule twice.

Rifle Company needs to bring something to the table other than the E8. I'd suggest dumping the flamethrower and bundling the snares with the sprint. The open slot could be filled with either another impact unit or ability. The E8 itself also could use a buff. I'd suggest either increasing its low RoF (so it has an actual advantage over HVAP 76) or else reworking its vet. (which is a carbon copy of the stock shermans, it would be better off with the 76 vet)

Heavy Cav's Smoke Barrage is overpriced compared to the alternatives found in other factions.

Tactical Supports P-47 Strike needs a rework and a recost. The strafe puts nearly all of the damage in the center of the strafe makes it tricky to use. That it costs nearly as much butterfly bombs is insane. (strafes in general are overcosted imo)

Urban Assault is a strong goodstuff.doc. I'd argue the Rifle Grenade in its current form is absurd and that it should be swapped for Rifle Companies flamethrower, buy I think there would be hell to pay for whomever tried.

The game doesnt need more overhauls, it needs the opposite. It needs all these community-overhauls reverted and get balanced and designed by actual game devs.

I mean, it is entertaining to watch as long as you don't play the game yourself, but at the same time it's also sad to see how a well-crafted game gets turned into...well...the current Company of Heroes 2 :/

...

So coming back from all these numbers to the core. It just was about adding a medium option thas has more AT capability than M4A3 and more AI than Jackson. I proposed the 76mm because it would fill this gap while beeing inferior at AI compared to M4A3 and AT compared to Jackson. That was the point as Stormjäger claimed 76mm would be op (especially with Calliope) which lead to the discussion about stats and numbers. My goal was to show that 76mm hasn't universal shells, it just has a really strong RoF (noone questioned that). If a Sherman has universal rounds right from the start it is the E8, because it has a decent penetration.

The core problem of USF T4 tank roster is that there is nothing to choose from. Alternate medium tanks are only in one-out-of-three Companies and that are mainly less used Companies. So it basically comes down to M4A3+M36 every game. I still do think 76mm would be a good alternative, it neither up nor op, just a fine tank with its ups and downs. It would lead to some decision makng finally.

The game doesnt need more overhauls, it needs the opposite. It needs all these community-overhauls reverted and get balanced and designed by actual game devs.

I mean, it is entertaining to watch as long as you don't play the game yourself, but at the same time it's also sad to see how a well-crafted game gets turned into...well...the current Company of Heroes 2 :/

Release CoH2 was anything but "Well crafted". Lelic bungled balance and basic design for a /very/ long time, culminating in the release of the WFA, who were (and still are, to some degree) ludicrously badly designed.

Part of the reason balance isnt in a better state is that lelic simply don't give the Balance Team room to make major changes, any changes made have to fit lelic's really autistic "vision". An example of this includes their refusal to allow Bolster to be scrapped for UKF, and their insistence that UKF simply /cannot/ have nondoctrinal mobile indirect for some reason.

So coming back from all these numbers to the core. It just was about adding a medium option thas has more AT capability than M4A3 and more AI than Jackson. I proposed the 76mm because it would fill this gap while beeing inferior at AI compared to M4A3 and AT compared to Jackson. That was the point as Stormjäger claimed 76mm would be op (especially with Calliope) which lead to the discussion about stats and numbers. My goal was to show that 76mm hasn't universal shells, it just has a really strong RoF (noone questioned that). If a Sherman has universal rounds right from the start it is the E8, because it has a decent penetration.

The problem is that 76mm in its current implementation is op for stock unit. I 76mm Sherman supported by Paras for instance.

This what I had suggested over a year ago:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/104125/a-redesign-of-sherman

I doubt that Mod would be wiling to for such a change.

The core problem of USF T4 tank roster is that there is nothing to choose from.

That is diversity issue and not a balance problem.

Alternate medium tanks are only in one-out-of-three Companies and that are mainly less used Companies. So it basically comes down to M4A3+M36 every game. I still do think 76mm would be a good alternative, it neither up nor op, just a fine tank with its ups and downs. It would lead to some decision makng finally.

The problem has little to do with access to doctrinal tanks since USF have more option than other faction:
Easy8
76mm
Dozer upgrade
Dozer 105

The diversity issue is that M4A3 is one of the most cost efficient Main battle tanks with exeptional AI and M36 is one of the most cost efficient TDs vs any vehicle making the alternatives unnecessary.