Zooks for con/penals in Lend Lease
8 Mar 2021, 14:25 PM
#1
Posts: 1563
What about Zooks for cons/penals in lends lease commander bundle the ability with con repair and call it infantry filed kit or what ever.
8 Mar 2021, 15:29 PM
#2
Posts: 5279
I always thought the M5 should have been a variation of the UKF halftrack that drops guns. Since cons only have 1 slot and it competes with 7 man (unlike Svts that come much earlier and don't have an "unlock" like getting the halftrack would I don't think it would be an issue. Would get around the bit of having a non doc vehicle locking a doctrinal infantry squad too.
#stalinwept
8 Mar 2021, 17:24 PM
#3
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Scrap the M5 and let Assault Guards be a call in infantry with access to Elite Zooks? Adjust whatever other thing is necessary.
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8 Mar 2021, 17:40 PM
#4
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
M5 should definitely be removed. It was bad design before. And now it's just pointless. I just don't know what to do next. Give the Assault Guards a bazooka as an additional option. Or give a bazooka to the Conscripts. Or, for example, remove the Guardsmen and give Thompson to the Conscripts and the Bazooka to the Penals.
8 Mar 2021, 18:21 PM
#5
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
Bundles are bad, I thought we learned this back in 2015/16 when dual t34/85s were nerfed?
Assault guards should be a normal call in infantry squad, with an upgrade that provides them with 1/2 bazookas. I would also like to see them get a special ability to make them more than just boring shocks. (maybe suppressive fire or tactical advance)
Assault guards should be a normal call in infantry squad, with an upgrade that provides them with 1/2 bazookas. I would also like to see them get a special ability to make them more than just boring shocks. (maybe suppressive fire or tactical advance)
8 Mar 2021, 18:42 PM
#6
Posts: 1594
Bundles are bad, I thought we learned this back in 2015/16 when dual t34/85s were nerfed?
Assault guards should be a normal call in infantry squad, with an upgrade that provides them with 1/2 bazookas. I would also like to see them get a special ability to make them more than just boring shocks. (maybe suppressive fire or tactical advance)
Bundles in the sense of "Getting (Or, rather, being forced to get) multiple units with a single purchase" are bad, yes. Bundles in the sense of multiple "passive" commander abilities sharing the same slot is fine, though, and that's what's being suggested.
8 Mar 2021, 18:46 PM
#7
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
Bundles in the sense of "Getting (Or, rather, being forced to get) multiple units with a single purchase" are bad, yes. Bundles in the sense of multiple "passive" commander abilities sharing the same slot is fine, though, and that's what's being suggested.
Sorry, that's what I meant, bundles as getting multiple units at once. I was more agreeing with Crecer and elchino.
8 Mar 2021, 18:49 PM
#8
Posts: 1594
Sorry, that's what I meant, bundles as getting multiple units at once. I was more agreeing with Crecer and elchino.
Ah, fair enough, my mistake too, then. I definitely agree with the three of you on that front, there isnt a single Bundle Callin in the game that shouldn't be reworked into separate abilities, you're forced to buy things you really don't want in order to access something you do... this is most aggravating when part of the bundle is something you can build nondoctrinally.
8 Mar 2021, 19:40 PM
#9
Posts: 498
At this point zook drop wouldn't even be that far fetched, considering soviets could already equip other soviets with SVTs and brits drop vickers and piats for everyone.
And I agree that the bundle should be separated. I mean sure, considering that you get an M5 and an assault guard squad equipped with tommies without any munition investment it is a good price for 1-2 call-ins, I mean you can turn one M5 into AA and keep an another for reinforcing, but then the rest becomes a burden. And even if the M5 was replaced with some other HT unavailable to soviets it would be still a burden when you just want more assault guards.
Separate them, make the thompsons a munition upgrade, it will be more expensive this way but not many will miss the discounted bundle, I'm certain.
And I agree that the bundle should be separated. I mean sure, considering that you get an M5 and an assault guard squad equipped with tommies without any munition investment it is a good price for 1-2 call-ins, I mean you can turn one M5 into AA and keep an another for reinforcing, but then the rest becomes a burden. And even if the M5 was replaced with some other HT unavailable to soviets it would be still a burden when you just want more assault guards.
Separate them, make the thompsons a munition upgrade, it will be more expensive this way but not many will miss the discounted bundle, I'm certain.
8 Mar 2021, 19:45 PM
#10
Posts: 449
Interesting idea that could really help Soviet infantry AT.
8 Mar 2021, 20:01 PM
#11
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Scrap the M5 and let Assault Guards be a call in infantry with access to Elite Zooks? Adjust whatever other thing is necessary.
Could be an option.
Either upgrade for the thompsons or elite zooks.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
8 Mar 2021, 21:16 PM
#12
Posts: 919
Yeah, I do think a lot of the suggestions here are reasonable. A seperate Assault Guards call-in would make sense. Thompson and Bazooka upgrade (maybe with super bazooka elite option) would make a lot of sense on top at this commander.
Alternatively keep the bundle, take a M3 instead and make both units buildable at base once you unlocked the bundled call-in. The M3 with its repair ability would add a lot of value for Soviets which didn't have vehicle crews for repairing. At USF it is way less useful for this reason.
If the fuel drop would be standardized to german supply drop in addition (coming from your base, dropping at munition point), this commander would be really playable again.
Alternatively keep the bundle, take a M3 instead and make both units buildable at base once you unlocked the bundled call-in. The M3 with its repair ability would add a lot of value for Soviets which didn't have vehicle crews for repairing. At USF it is way less useful for this reason.
If the fuel drop would be standardized to german supply drop in addition (coming from your base, dropping at munition point), this commander would be really playable again.
8 Mar 2021, 21:23 PM
#13
Posts: 5279
At this point zook drop wouldn't even be that far fetched, considering soviets could already equip other soviets with SVTs and brits drop vickers and piats for everyone.. Bundles are not necessarily bad, but the units within should be replaceable. Consider the bundle as an unlock fee and thusly allow the units within to a bit stronger than their timing might otherwise allow as an individual unit.
And I agree that the bundle should be separated. I mean sure, considering that you get an M5 and an assault guard squad equipped with tommies without any munition investment it is a good price for 1-2 call-ins, I mean you can turn one M5 into AA and keep an another for reinforcing, but then the rest becomes a burden. And even if the M5 was replaced with some other HT unavailable to soviets it would be still a burden when you just want more assault guards.
Separate them, make the thompsons a munition upgrade, it will be more expensive this way but not many will miss the discounted bundle, I'm certain.
In essence. Buy the bundle then you sre free to build the units from the bundle as you see fit. But you must purchase the bundle to get access to the individual units in it.
This would work regardless of what halftrack is installed in the commander, but would obviously be more attractive and interesting if it wasn't a halftrack the soviet already have stock...
Would work nice for the guards though!
#stalinwept
8 Mar 2021, 21:37 PM
#14
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
The OTHER thing that Assault Guards need is their Vet revamped. Probably something similar to Ass Grens or Assault Sections. Currently their high target size means they just get chopped up until Vet 2 (and then low offensive bonuses and can't compete till Vet 3). At the very least trip wire flares should be replaced. In my post in Revamp wish thread I suggested replacing it with the PZ Gren "Combined Arms" buff so that it meshes well with the M5 Call-in (if it stays). Then you can add the Assault Guards as a call-in for other doctrines and they are actually worth getting when combined with other vehicles (KV1 or whatever).
Current Vet
Current Vet
8 Mar 2021, 22:12 PM
#15
Posts: 1563
What about a weapon racks style structure that combat engies can build that give the ability to upgrade infantry to lend lease weapon like zooks 1x, thompson 2x and alike.
9 Mar 2021, 00:39 AM
#16
Posts: 1958
Scrap the M5 and let Assault Guards be a call in infantry with access to Elite Zooks? Adjust whatever other thing is necessary.
For normal Penals, giving them cloak and replacing their satchel with the PTRS Con AT-nades would make them a lot more viable. Maybe let them make tank traps and the 15 muni stun mines. None of this would help Penals when used offensively but would help them when playing defensively.
Alternatively, just give them the same ability to slow a vehicle like Guards have - a 30 muni ability that slows tanks for a bit.
I'm not sure I'd want them to have any other buffs. Most AT infantry is terrible at AI so I think Penals should remain that way.
For Penals in Lend Lease, giving them two elite Zooks would make the doctrine better.
9 Mar 2021, 00:49 AM
#17
Posts: 1594
For normal Penals, giving them cloak and replacing their satchel with the PTRS Con AT-nades would make them a lot more viable. Maybe let them make tank traps and the 15 muni stun mines. None of this would help Penals when used offensively but would help them when playing defensively.
Isn't this just making them into PTRS conscripts, basically? Cloak and the AT grenades would improve them Offensively, incidentally. As weird as the AT satchel is, its almost purely "Defensive" due to its extremely short range.
Alternatively, just give them the same ability to slow a vehicle like Guards have - a 30 muni ability that slows tanks for a bit.
Preferable, but simply handing them Button makes them a bit too close to Guards (And Guards use their DP28 to button tanks, it'd be odd for Penals to be able to do it without an LMG). Surely there must be design space for a somewhat different utility ability? An actual (but short-duration) stun caused by volley-firing their PTRS? An ability that causes debuff to a Tank's armour?
9 Mar 2021, 01:00 AM
#18
Posts: 1958
Isn't this just making them into PTRS conscripts, basically? Cloak and the AT grenades would improve them Offensively, incidentally. As weird as the AT satchel is, its almost purely "Defensive" due to its extremely short range.
Preferable, but simply handing them Button makes them a bit too close to Guards (And Guards use their DP28 to button tanks, it'd be odd for Penals to be able to do it without an LMG). Surely there must be design space for a somewhat different utility ability? An actual (but short-duration) stun caused by volley-firing their PTRS? An ability that causes debuff to a Tank's armour?
It would make them a lot like PTRS conscripts, but those are in one meme doctrine only, and PTRS cons have terrible surviveability.
I like the idea of a stun, but would worry about people making a chain of stuns and having it be like the old TWP. If they did make this change, it would have to be 2 seconds at most with a much longer cooldown.
9 Mar 2021, 03:41 AM
#19
Posts: 4928
I would also like to see them get a special ability to make them more than just boring shocks. (maybe suppressive fire or tactical advance)
In the Campaign, Shock Troops have an ability called Fire Superiority in which they target fire on an enemy squad to suppress them, whilst walking toward them. This was originally in Multiplayer as well, but was removed for reasons that are not listed in the patch notes (early CoH2 was practically still in development at this time). Would be pretty sweet to see Assault Guards get this, and might be a nice wave at US Airborne's Tactical Advance which also uses the Thompson but deals extra damage instead of suppression.
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