OKW Spec Ops Doctrine (especially Radio Silence)

The OKW SpecOps commander is full of abilites that require 1-2 clicks to perform with a lot of impact and zero counter play possibility. This commander is/will be the dominating OKW commander in 1v1 and team games.

- Radio Silence is way too good in my opinion. It completely disturbs tacmap based players with all units disappearing from the map. On top of that there is a speed increase on all units, which is unnecessary. You get the whole thing for 40 munitions, which is far too effective for its cost. While it is an unique idea, it is the only ability in the game which heavily affects how certain player play the game, rendering the tac map useless.

- Infiltration Nades. They are basically the assault grenadier grenades but on all your mainline infantry. They cost only 20 Munitions and and the whole idea is a leftover from the times where OKW had a lower income than other factions. It never got adjusted since.

- Spec Ops flares have been brought up before. They cost 60 munitions and are the best recon you have in the game. While loiter recon can be countered by AA there is no counterplay here.

The easiest way would be to increase the cost of these abilites, but it won't change the fundamental issue at core where there is no legit way to counter them. For example Radio intercepts gives you a brief window of opportunity to prepare for an incoming unit, but it doesn't fiddle with they way the other player plays the game. This is done right in my opinion.

While the current patch tackles core army issue, I think this is worth addressing.

Radio silence is god awful design on top of being op. It's essentially the only ability in the game that "breaks the fourth wall" by messing with the opponent's interface.

I agree with Luvnest here.
copy pasta from my comment about radio silence I made earlier here:

Thread: [Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback28 Nov 2020, 11:30 AM
I think Radio Silence should definitely be looked at.

This ability is so frustrating to play against and destroys one of the most important aspects of coh2 game play: the mini-map.

Players rely heavily on the mini-map or tactical map. Radio silence is a real mindfucker in this.

I think the movement speed in combat is too much. Units shouldnt walk faster when they are in a fight.

I think units should be invisible on the mini-map UNTIL they get into a fight AT LEAST.

If this doesnt get changed, I woudl suggest at least give it a huge increase of muni and increase the cooldown. Its way too spammable. ALso, I think 1 minute is too long.

Stuff like this doesnt belong in coh2 and if you ask me, i wouldnt mind that it would get deleted from the game completely.

Would you mind adding any suggestions on how to fix/change these abilities?

I agree that the commander is one of the best, however radio silence is heavily depending on skill level. Especially lower rank players barely use the tac map at all.
Infiltration nades where increased in price (small increase from 15 to 20) in one of the more recent patches. I personally think they are in an okay place at the moment since they stop the damage output from the squad during the animation and are usually fairly obvious. However I think they still could use some adjustments since their effectiveness on retreating squads can be very high.
- Flares: fully agree. They are discussed regularly.

For Radio Silence - Absolutely agree, any fourth wall breaking abilities like that shouldn't be in the game. It targets the opposing player's ability to the play the game. That might be unique, but that's because it's inherently bad design. It should just be reworked to something like Smoke Raid Operation of UKF, allowing all infantry squads to camo in cover and something else like improved capture/movement speed.

Infiltration nades - I see your point. An interesting design element about them is that they can't be cancelled unlike Assault Grenadier grenade assault (you don't get refunded), so you have to be smart about whether you throw them or not. If munition cost gets increased to 30 munitions, they should be refundable if cancelled on time.

Spec Ops - True, they can't be countered unlike Recon loiters. I personally had the idea of moving the flares to tanks as targetted ability, similar to the 251 in Mobile Observation Post mode for Strategic Reserves. Then you can safely decrease cost from 60 to 50 munitions as it can't be freely used anywhere on the map.

For Radio Silence - Absolutely agree, any fourth wall breaking abilities like that shouldn't be in the game.

I disagree, I think there should have been more things with the idea of Radio Silence in the game. There should be more ways to play against your opponent than with combat alone. Arguably the mistake in execution however is that this is a global ability that -currently- doesn't have any drawbacks or requirements. Panzer Elite's Vampire Halftrack and the way it could steal resources back in CoHOF is a better implemented example of a "4 dimensional chess" ability.

I disagree, I think there should have been more things with the idea of Radio Silence in the game. There should be more ways to play against your opponent than with combat alone. Arguably the mistake in execution however is that this is a global ability that -currently- doesn't have any drawbacks or requirements. Panzer Elite's Vampire Halftrack and the way it could steal resources back in CoHOF is a better implemented example of a "4 dimensional chess" ability.

I get your point of liking abilities that can be countered if you pay attention to your UI, like coh1's Vampire Halftrack, but that's not what Radio Silence is. Radio Silence is essentially putting a giant smiley face on your opponent's tactical/mini map, I can't see that working in any iteration.

Radio Silence: Cant say much about this ability cause i dont use tac map and im less depended on the minimap than other players. But i like these unique concepts. Increasing the cooldown or removing the move speed seems reasonable.

Inf. Nades: I agree: Increase the price and remove the dumb cancel cost.

Flares: Retarded ability. No counterplay, little cooldown, low effort and quite cheap. Remove the ability and give volks the flare ability of Panzerfusilliers imo.

For Radio Silence - Absolutely agree, any fourth wall breaking abilities like that shouldn't be in the game. It targets the opposing player's ability to the play the game. That might be unique, but that's because it's inherently bad design. It should just be reworked to something like Smoke Raid Operation of UKF, allowing all infantry squads to camo in cover and something else like improved capture/movement speed.

Radio silence.

I do not think it is necessary to removed the ability with a few changes.

I would suggest the following:
Ability now effect a group of unit instead o being global

Unit now do attack attack until ordered to attack

Once unit engage enemy units they become visible in mini map

These changes will require some micro and smart use from player using the ability and allow opponent to react.

Infiltration nades - I see your point. An interesting design element about them is that they can't be cancelled unlike Assault Grenadier grenade assault (you don't get refunded), so you have to be smart about whether you throw them or not. If munition cost gets increased to 30 munitions, they should be refundable if cancelled on time.

Another difference is very long CD.

Spec Ops - True, they can't be countered unlike Recon loiters. I personally had the idea of moving the flares to tanks as targetted ability, similar to the 251 in Mobile Observation Post mode for Strategic Reserves. Then you can safely decrease cost from 60 to 50 munitions as it can't be freely used anywhere on the map.

50 munition is way to high for something (251 also) Soviet mortar get from vet 0 for 30...

The current ability need some change like longer CD for sure.

What I do not understand is why people complain about flare being "uncounterable" and do not complain about about stock reckon planes that also "uncounterable" and soon will be available in 3 factions. Or why people to not complain about 3-4 UKF abilities that come also with flare/reckon for no particular reason.

I get your point of liking abilities that can be countered if you pay attention to your UI, like coh1's Vampire Halftrack, but that's not what Radio Silence is. Radio Silence is essentially putting a giant smiley face on your opponent's tactical/mini map, I can't see that working in any iteration.

I'm totally fine with Radio Silence removing minimap icons and forcing the opponent to adjust their play style for a while. Arguably there should have been a drawback or a requirement to it though, but I doubt we can add anything at this point. The main issue seems to be the frequency at which it can be used, i.e. duration or cost. Which can be adjusted. It currently is one of the core strengths of the commander however.

What if, Radio Silence doesn't remove all the unit icons from the tacmap, but change them maybe? Like they all show up as blank or something?
So you can still see and respond to threats, but you don't know what they are without looking at them?
Hope someone understands what I mean.

What if, Radio Silence doesn't remove all the unit icons from the tacmap, but change them maybe? Like they all show up as blank or something?
So you can still see and respond to threats, but you don't know what they are without looking at them?
Hope someone understands what I mean.

I guess you mean that mini map gives information about the position of the enemy unit but not the type of unit.

I'm totally fine with Radio Silence removing minimap icons and forcing the opponent to adjust their play style for a while. Arguably there should have been a drawback or a requirement to it though, but I doubt we can add anything at this point. The main issue seems to be the frequency at which it can be used, i.e. duration or cost. Which can be adjusted. It currently is one of the core strengths of the commander however.

Minimap is how you play any RTS on high level. There's no alternative as far as I know. I agree with you that the vampire is interesting design butI don't see how it's comparable at all to Radio Silence? The vampire requires you to use your interface to realize it's there. Radio Silence prevents you from using your interface.

I'm totally fine with Radio Silence removing minimap icons and forcing the opponent to adjust their play style for a while. Arguably there should have been a drawback or a requirement to it though, but I doubt we can add anything at this point. The main issue seems to be the frequency at which it can be used, i.e. duration or cost. Which can be adjusted. It currently is one of the core strengths of the commander however.

the rest of the commander is very useful. Its definitely not the core strength of the commander. The radio silence is just a very broken ''extra''.

How do you suggest adjusting playstyle for a while? Minimap or tac map is such a fundamental aspact of coh2(and as GIAA stated, from all rts games). I don't think there is a way to adjust that aspect of coh2 gameplay for a while, aka, there is no counterplay.

You cant imagine broken stuff like this in a real good rts balance wise like AOE2.

Would you mind adding any suggestions on how to fix/change these abilities?

I'm no game designer. I'd change it in a way that it won't mess with your interface. Out of the top of my head: Maybe something in the direction of making the units camouflaged in cover and slightly faster when out of combat but with a bigger detection radius. This way it still fits the theme of the commander and allow your units to creep up on the enemy, jumping from cover to cover in order to close in (like they did historically at the beginning of the battle of the bulge on which the commander is based) without casting a magic spell where your units suddenly disappear from the minimap.

I agree that the commander is one of the best, however radio silence is heavily depending on skill level. Especially lower rank players barely use the tac map at all.
Infiltration nades where increased in price (small increase from 15 to 20) in one of the more recent patches. I personally think they are in an okay place at the moment since they stop the damage output from the squad during the animation and are usually fairly obvious. However I think they still could use some adjustments since their effectiveness on retreating squads can be very high.
- Flares: fully agree. They are discussed regularly.

I still don't see how 20 munitions infiltration are justified. They can result in a squad wipe quite easily. And by looking at their price tag you can usually afford them without much resource handling. Also they are hard to dodge, because they get thrown around erratically that even if you dodge you still get caugt in the blast.

i agree the commander is a bit nuts. instead of spec ops maybe it should be called "fire sale on abilities doctrine" because most of it is massively cost efficient compared to other abilities.
flares you get a recon loiter, for the same price, but no drawbacks (in live)
infiltration nades cost the same as a molitov
radio silence costs as much as oorahing 2 units, but instead of broadcasting that you are sprinting it removes the units from the map...
and of course because its an okw commander you are not missing out on anything in choosing this commander- if this exact same commander was on say ost, it would be significantly weaker as you would be giving up durable infantry or heavy armour for example which would somewhat help balance it.


my suggestions are as follows:
radio silence- as now, but only when outside combat. the ability itself is frankly really cool and outside the box, i agree with sander that there should be more abilities that scale with skill level BUT its a bit much to not only have to react more swiftly due to sprint but also not know where to react.
with my suggestion you end up with something more realistic (not that that matters) where preparing for an assault and maneuvering puts the enemy in disarray. they cant tell if theres a wide flank, or how many nits are engaging or where, until they do engage.

increase cost and cooldown as necessary

flares- already being looked at in the current patch with is good. if that falls through, id tie them to a unit so that they are in line with every singe other flare (except brit flares, which could be tied to the val or something, but a different topic that is) preferably the UHU, who i would put into this doctrine and replace with a dedicated AT squad. the UHU could then fill a support unit role, with debuffs and recon. increase infantry target sizes, detect camo ect.

infiltration nades are an odd duck. outrageously cost effective and nasty when they hit, but not always available... either way 20 mu is a disgracefully low cost i admit i dont have anything more than "increase price" to say about this...

Let's take a look at the doctrine as a whole:

Radio Silence
IR StG44
Infiltration nades
Flares
Command Panther

A big problem with making changes to Spec Ops, as I brought up before, is that overall the doc is frankly subpar/mediocre compared to its siblings such as Feuer or Breakthrough. There is no artillery call-in, the flare whilst aggravating to many, does not actually do anything by itself. And we have nerfs to Soviet AA coming up, meaning recon planes are no longer auto-shot down. US AA is alright, much better than non-existent. If the Flare is to be changed then flares in general should be looked at, as they have comparable issues.

The 'special' tank provided is 'okay' for the cost, nothing crazy and suffers from most of the same problems as its normal cousins. The Command Panther was death on treads in 2015 but successive changes to Panthers/TDs in general and nerfs to the CP reduced its capabilities and timing (requires the Schwerer). Now it's a glorified 50 sight range Panther with some aura benefits to teammates/ (more for) owned units but also a massive liability and a weaker Coordinated Fire. The enemy WILL be hunting it specifically.

IR StG 44s have a great passive detection ability and damage but your Obers last even shorter times because they're closer to the enemy instead of making use of that LMG squad's 25.5 far dps.

Infiltration nades are dangerous, but come with already discussed downsides. It has an effective shorter range than many nades because every model needs to be in range for the throw. So you don't get throws like this outside the circle because a model is closer: Show Spoiler

And that's without the massive telegraph of a sudden animation change where everyone stands up/cease fire. It comes later than the closest equivalent (Assault Gren Grenade assault, 30 muni) which is available at BP1.

If the real issue of the doc is entire armies vanishing then perhaps the ability should be restricted to a couple of units at most, via selection in their personal UI. But then that would still be a problem for many as invisible minimap units cause problems with the assumption that the map is safe because there's no enemy units on there. This is also not true for flanks or clever manoeuvring in the FoW. It'll be harder to sneak a tank into enemy artillery and less time for firing will be available (as they may have seen you earlier instead of the attack notification, but doable-ish and still counterable by mines or general map awareness.

My 2 cent about this commander:

The problems with Infiltration nades and Radio silence could be solved with higher munition cost for both abilities as Sander93 said. But uncountable flares needs to be replaced.
But this would also mean that Specops had to get back a powerful unit / ability to stay relevant (Commando Panther was already nerfed hard)

Here's my idea:
. Radio Silence (loses Sprint ability, higher munition costs)
. Infiltration nades (higher munitions costs)
. IR StG44
. Flares replaced by Nachtjaeger unit (OKW sniper, 360 MP, unlocked by fully teched T2/T3)
. Commando Panther

The sniper would be a very good choice to replace the artillery flares:
The unit fits very well to the theme of the commander, it provides a lot of vision, can be countered and OKW dont have access to this iconic CoH unit yet. Considering the proposed multiple nerfs to Specops this addition would be acceptable imo.
(And btw; I also think USF should get a doctrinal sniper)

Agree about Radio Silence and the Flares.

Then again I kinda feel like if these two abilities are nerfed why even bother going for this doctrine? Command Panther and IR Stgs are mediocre.

I don't see the doctrine used much outside 1v1 as it is and nerfing it further will make it even less used unless there is something added that keeps its power at the same level it currently is.

JibberJabberJobber was mentioning the spec ops flares being tied to a unit. What about moving the flares to both the Command Panther and the Luchs? Having it on the Luchs would probably make it come out at a similar time to the CP requirement (maybe remove the CP requirement since its tied to units or lower it. I can't remember if the flare is tied to CP in the Strategic Reserves doctrine). It would prevent the flare from being used anywhere on the map without risk.

Having it tied to vehicles (fuel costs) and having it limited on where it could be used (within range of the unit), I think it would make sense to lower the ability cost to match the flares from SOV mortar. *Edit* or perhaps find a middle ground since these vehicles are more maneuverable compared to a mortar.

Also, any thought of unlocking the KT along with the Command Panther? The KT was unlocked with the ST from elite doctrine and nothing seems to have broken as a result.