[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 08:39 AMGiaA

Why is it more trouble to increase the price of bolster than to completley change the way it works.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 09:19 AMcheese tonkatsu

how about lower down resupply half-track cp from 4 to 3. compaered to other factions' hafltrack call-ins.
and adding vicker-k weapon box on hq for special weapons regiment.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 09:13 AMSelvy289

In my opinnion, this wouldnt work because on one hand most people see it as a mandatory upgrade to compete and on the other would screw with your tech times and leave you very vulnerable.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 10:11 AMGiaA

Bolster being mandatory to compete is one of those typical meta myths that have happened many times in the history of this game. People just repeat the shit they've ehard somewhere else and it becomes this accepted pseudo wisdom. You can just get an extra unit instead of bolster. There's pros and cons to it. Right now bolster is cheap enough to be owrth it most of the time but this could be changed.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 10:18 AMKatitof

You would be first player ever we have ever seen who does not get bolster for whatever reason.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 10:44 AMGiaA

Yes, everybody is getting bolster because it is too cost efficient atm as I said. It's just not necessary to make brits work at all like some people claim.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 10:52 AMKatitof

I would really argue about it.
Its still cheaper manpower-wise to get bolster and reinforce 4 squads then get 5th.
Its more muni efficient, because you don't need to upgrade whole another squad, its more pop efficient and it increases repair speeds as well.

Tommies also do not have rec dmg modifier, so each second in mid and late game without it just increases the potential to get them wiped more easily by nades or vehicles.

If anything, there is no benefit to NOT picking bolster and getting additional squad instead.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 10:52 AMKatitof

I would really argue about it.
Its still cheaper manpower-wise to get bolster and reinforce 4 squads then get 5th.
Its more muni efficient, because you don't need to upgrade whole another squad, its more pop efficient and it increases repair speeds as well.

Tommies also do not have rec dmg modifier, so each second in mid and late game without it just increases the potential to get them wiped more easily by nades or vehicles.

If anything, there is no benefit to NOT picking bolster and getting additional squad instead.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 03:07 AMGiaA

This way of arguing is so detached from what the actual game plays like. You need to base your arguments on specific ingame situations. Whether there has been another RTS in the past that contained a pre upgraded starter unit is just completely irrelevant period. If you make the first Raid upgrade mandatory this could lead to increased problems against aggressive OKW or Assault Gren openings because Raid significantly decreases close range dps. The first engagement is very delicate and small changes like that can affect it greatly.
ah yes, close range dps the bread and butter of tommies. Design wise the best long range mainline infantry SHOULD be losing against dedicated CQB specialists anyways.... How tommies interact with assault grens in close range shouldn't even be a consideration.... It's also removing the cover mechanic which was supposed to be there to balance them and giving them a 15%movement bonus.

Why would 2 power levels separated by a global upgrade make Brits impossible to balance? The global upgrade just has to entail a sufficient trade off. (Price) If bolster is too strong increase its fuel price.
Again you're basing your argument on some made up principle without getting into the specifics of the actual game.

I'm basing my argument on having played the game long before but including since the release of the brits. A flat priced global upgrade is a colossal power spike for quite literally ALL your stock infantry (except the new air officer I spose) it's an upgrade that makes the same unit you paid 280mp for 25% better (realistically it's more due to slowed dps drop and increased targets for small arms but that's difficult to value) adding models is MASSIVE and EXTREMELY difficult to balance on a one of basis let alone a global and as a global it makes Brit Infantry a disaster for balance.
Tommies are either balanced so the purchase price is balanced for 4 men or 5 meaning you either have crippled 4 man squads and a must buy global bolster or cost effecient 4 man squads and a must buy global bolster that puts them over the top. As seen by live. Increasing the fuel cost doesn't change the root of the problem which is balancing a unit around an "optional" side grade.

You trade in sandbags and on field heal which is a big part of what makes tommies strong. I'm not ableto be to predict on how it plays out without testing it extensively (which I haven't been able to do yet) but so are you. Your claim that it will either be spammed to the max or ignored is based on nothing.
based on having played the game through hundreds of metals. If it's not worth over doing people wont do it. This is the way the game has been for as long as I remeber and this will be no different. You can't unupgrade so if it's not decisively the best choice then people will wait for the best choice
Not getting it early means denying yourself of significant capping power (especially if the first one was free). Spamming it would cripple your close range dps and mostly deny you of building sandbags. So why wouldn't 1-2 raid sections become meta?

the first one free could allow brits the early game capping but it to taper off and still be a bit of a weak ability so that it doesn't get over used.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 15:58 PMPip

I wonder if it would be possible at all to balance the Assault Officer as the Brits' starting unit?

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 16:04 PMHannibal

Unless it gets heavily nerfed, no.
I also don't see the design benefit of having a CQC assault unit as the starter unit of an otherwise defensive and static faction. Or did you have a specific idea in mind?

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 16:13 PMPip

I'm not sure, really. The Assault Officer would definitely need to be changed to accommodate being their starter unit.

Vague thoughts that the Officer could, instead of being necessarily an "assault" Officer, begin the game as an infantry section, with different upgrade paths, and perhaps without the cover requirement. Upgrades include: "Assault" (Becomes as it is currently), a reworked "Raid" upgrade, including the scoped Enfield, but without quite such schizophrenic design, or whatever else could be suggested.

If the Balance Team are set on removing the Section capture bonus, I think it might be interesting to then give it to the Officer. Given that it's an unit limited to one being on the field at any one time, I think it lends some potentially more interesting design space, rather than trying to give tommmies every option under the sun. The Officer is apparently not a terribly popular unit at the moment, after all.

EDIT: Really, I keep thinking about these rather complex design solutions to issues, I feel as though it's a little naive given that there are likely rather simpler solutions possible.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 16:48 PMHannibal

As you said, I think your idea is super complicated for something that is not an issue anyway, BUT:
I actually like the idea of giving the capture bonus to the officer. Maybe even as an ability: officer unit and IS sections in a certain range get increased capture/decapture rates for some time. Arbitrarily I'll just pick for 30 seconds or so. Then make the ability relatively cheap for 30 mun. Would not promote blobbing (rather even spreading out units) and the officer has a utility ability that would be in line of a "command" unit. This ability would also be relatively useless in a game with constant fights, but if you manage to win a bigger battle you can capitalize quickly by activating it and decapping a couple of points quickly.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 10:11 AMGiaA

You can just get an extra unit instead of bolster.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 19:28 PMelchino7

That doesn't work due to how the popcap system works.

Popcap for infantry is squad pop value + 1 per model. Regardless of cost of the upgrade, it will always be more efficient to get 4 squads of IS with Bolster than 5 squads of IS without it.

And this doesn't even account for RE.


If we account for either pyro/medic (now even the raid upgrade) on top of the weapon system things gets even uglier.

The problem has always been 5 man IS with either squad upgrade, grenade unlocked and double weapons been over the top. But to achieve that, you need to spend an unholy amount of resources and you will only see it when at really late stage of the games or as a consequence of a snowball effect.
In regards to the weapon system, i think the issue is that the Bren was nerfed in the wrong direction. A single Bren doesn't cut it and if we account for the penalties out of cover affecting way more the performance of LMGs than their base rifle, you would rather have an extra model of IS rather than a 4man squad with a single Bren.

Finally, vet. It was the initial general design that UKF would get worst vet bonuses on their infantry, so their scaling is more tied to those upgrades. If you check, you would see that the bonuses are inferior to all other factions main line bonuses. Reminder that they had their scoped lee enfields at vet 3 removed, cause the execution of it was extremely poor (they increased the likehood of dropping weapons and, at first, they even reduced the DPS of the unit compared to vanilla rifles). Even after it was fixed it was barely an improvement.


TL;DR: Bolster is problematic because it's the more visible and worst component of a whole system which is flawed.
If you asked me what makes IS hard to balance it is in order:

Bolster >> Weapon upgrade >>>> Squad Upgrade >> Sandbag > Vet > Trench > Grenade >>> Millbomb

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 19:46 PMPip

I wish lelic would just allow the Balance team to do away with Bolster as it currently exists. It causes SO many problems and really doesn't add anything interesting to the faction other than "haha my squads all have an extra guy now ".

Brens should be balanced more around single-upgrade performance, and prevent a second being purchased, squad upgrades need a MAJOR look at (I still think reworking the "Assault" officer as the vehicle for UKF infantry gimmicks would be an elegant choice, and would make it more usable in cases when you don't need an SMG squad. Make him the starter unit, with Enfields, and give HIM the ability to have powerful abilities. There are fewer concerns to be had when you can't spam him), and if Bolster could be done away with, Tommies could be given a more "normal" veterancy, to provide their scaling instead.

Regarding Sandbags, Trenches, and the Mills Bomb/Grenade tech, I agree they cause issues, but I don't have specific suggestions to change them.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 20:46 PMelchino7

Double Bren (stronger) could work if it was mutually exclusive with 5 man (as 5 man taking up a weapon slot) so you would had to opt between double 4 man Bren squad or 5 man with single Bren.

You could also gate a weapon slot behind Hammer/Anvil, meaning that early on you could only have a Bren (more simil to LMG42) or just the 5 man upgrade.

Even further now that medics are cheap and heal on AoE, you could make the 5th man linked towards either of the upgrades (pyro/medic), giving visual representation to that upgrade by giving them a weapon which occupies that slot. In this alternative version, you could get 5 man IS with 2x Bren but without medics nor pyro attached to them.

Jump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 20:46 PMelchino7

Double Bren (stronger) could work if it was mutually exclusive with 5 man (as 5 man taking up a weapon slot) so you would had to opt between double 4 man Bren squad or 5 man with single Bren.

You could also gate a weapon slot behind Hammer/Anvil, meaning that early on you could only have a Bren (more simil to LMG42) or just the 5 man upgrade.

Even further now that medics are cheap and heal on AoE, you could make the 5th man linked towards either of the upgrades (pyro/medic), giving visual representation to that upgrade by giving them a weapon which occupies that slot. In this alternative version, you could get 5 man IS with 2x Bren but without medics nor pyro attached to them.