[Winter Balance Update] UKF Feedback
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8 Dec 2020, 23:50 PM
#221
Posts: 101
Please scrap the whole idea of the raid section upgrade. If you think Brits aren't competitive without the extra capture speed, then don't remove that extra capture speed in the first place. Section design is already very convoluted and doesn't need an additional layer of separately balanced gunk.
9 Dec 2020, 05:32 AM
#222
Posts: 390 | Subs: 2
The raid package feels awkward to be honest. Logically I'd expect it to provide the best recon upgrade for tommies, but pyrotechnic tommies have considerably better vision range. I'm not sure increased capping speed and the ability to passively jog is worth it.
9 Dec 2020, 06:45 AM
#223
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
The raid package feels awkward to be honest. Logically I'd expect it to provide the best recon upgrade for tommies, but pyrotechnic tommies have considerably better vision range. I'm not sure increased capping speed and the ability to passively jog is worth it.
I feel like it's a really interesting idea but it needs some elaborate finetuning. An ammunition upgrade that actually reduces overall combat capacity is never gonna be viable. It also comes too late at 30 mun to really affect the early capping game. I feel like if the first Raid upgrade was free it could actually serve its purpose by increasing early capping speed while being a small handicap in early combat.
9 Dec 2020, 07:01 AM
#224
Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1
I feel like it's a really interesting idea but it needs some elaborate finetuning. An ammunition upgrade that actually reduces overall combat capacity is never gonna be viable. It also comes too late at 30 mun to really affect the early capping game. I feel like if the first Raid upgrade was free it could actually serve its purpose by increasing early capping speed while being a small handicap in early combat.
it can be that the stating squad will have it pre-upgrade like in coh1.
9 Dec 2020, 14:46 PM
#225
Posts: 5279
I feel like it's a really interesting idea but it needs some elaborate finetuning. An ammunition upgrade that actually reduces overall combat capacity is never gonna be viable. It also comes too late at 30 mun to really affect the early capping game. I feel like if the first Raid upgrade was free it could actually serve its purpose by increasing early capping speed while being a small handicap in early combat.
Have the first Tommy already upgraded maybe.. Would have to provide some late game scaling though, bonus vs cover or something
#stalinwept
9 Dec 2020, 17:21 PM
#226
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
Have the first Tommy already upgraded maybe.. Would have to provide some late game scaling though, bonus vs cover or something
No...that's not the point. The point of Raid is to give Brits the OPTION for additional early capping power especially when using UC builds.
9 Dec 2020, 20:10 PM
#227
Posts: 393
I'm really loving that Vickers MG on the Churchill but I do feel the model of the gunner himself needs to have a different uniform, like a normal infantryman. Otherwise it looks like there's two tank commanders. ^^'
Call me crazy, but I believe the Heavy Mortar Barrage caused the normal barrage to go into a 120 second cooldown in my last game. Was this intended?
Call me crazy, but I believe the Heavy Mortar Barrage caused the normal barrage to go into a 120 second cooldown in my last game. Was this intended?
9 Dec 2020, 20:20 PM
#228
Posts: 626 | Subs: 1
Without specific number how would you design Raid Infantry Section upgrade?
9 Dec 2020, 20:30 PM
#229
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Without specific number how would you design Raid Infantry Section upgrade?
Why should even be an upgrade for sections? Aren't IS overloaded with utility and weapon upgrades already (cashes, sandbags, trenches, heal, spot at vet 1, off map)?
If there is a need for such a unit why not create a unit specifically for that role (an "IS light" if you want)?
or
why don't you give not this role be to officer who's current implementation in not very successful?
But the important question is what is this unit supposed to do? Help UKF cap faster?
9 Dec 2020, 20:43 PM
#230
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
Call me crazy, but I believe the Heavy Mortar Barrage caused the normal barrage to go into a 120 second cooldown in my last game. Was this intended?
Both barrages go on cooldown when you fire the heavy mortar barrage. Intended so you can't heavy barrage then follow up with the light.
9 Dec 2020, 21:16 PM
#231
Posts: 5279
No...that's not the point. The point of Raid is to give Brits the OPTION for additional early capping power especially when using UC builds.
iirc in coh/of tommies came preupgraded with the scout upgrade and it was fine. i know its a different game entirely but having a preloaded squad inst necessarily a bad thing. the ukf design is so absolutely fucked and will never be balanced because of bolster anyways that i dont see why we cant experiment.
#stalinwept
10 Dec 2020, 02:00 AM
#232
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Without specific number how would you design Raid Infantry Section upgrade?
By scrapping its whole idea, since it just can lead to potentual cheesing. And giving capture bonuses back ones either T1 is unlocked or upon upgdaring IS with medics\pyro.
I undertand that main idea behind raid package was to give IS capping speed back, but adding on top of that removal of out-of-cover penalties and sprint just to justify having this upgrade in the game competly unnessery.
10 Dec 2020, 02:20 AM
#233
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
iirc in coh/of tommies came preupgraded with the scout upgrade and it was fine. i know its a different game entirely but having a preloaded squad inst necessarily a bad thing. the ukf design is so absolutely fucked and will never be balanced because of bolster anyways that i dont see why we cant experiment.
Recon Tommies from CoH 1 have literally nothing to do with CoH2 tommies except that the game, faction and unit share the same name. It's also absolutely possible to balance brits.
By scrapping its whole idea, since it just can lead to potentual cheesing. And giving capture bonuses back ones either T1 is unlocked or upon upgdaring IS with medics\pyro.
I undertand that main idea behind raid package was to give IS capping speed back, but adding on top of that removal of out-of-cover penalties and sprint just to justify having this upgrade in the game competly unnessery.
"potential cheesing" meaning what exactly? raid section spam? I don't see how giving brits some more variation in playstyle is "unnecessary".
10 Dec 2020, 02:30 AM
#234
Posts: 5279
Recon Tommies from CoH 1 have literally nothing to do with CoH2 tommies except that the game, faction and unit share the same name. It's also absolutely possible to balance brits.
my mention of coh/of was conceptual not Brit specific. The point was that there is precedent. Also, no, as long as the core unit of the faction is balanced spread across 4 models and 5 models as a global 1 off the faction will never be balanced. Pricing can't fix bad design. Either 4 man tommies will be UP or 5 man tommies will be OP. either bolster will be something you want to get ASAP or never at all. You can't balance a single unit across 2 power levels and have that at the center of the faction.
"potential cheesing" meaning what exactly? raid section spam? I don't see how giving brits some more variation in playstyle is "unnecessary".
tommies already have great stats. Giving them faster movement and removing their "balancing factor" (in quotations because it's already been gutted) has all the potential for cheese. It's either going to be abused in the a smelly cheddar or ignored entirely. I certainly commend the balance team for their outside the box approach but it's a bandaid attempt on a pulsing stomach wound. Bolster as a global is holding the faction back.
#stalinwept
10 Dec 2020, 03:07 AM
#235
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
This way of arguing is so detached from what the actual game plays like. You need to base your arguments on specific ingame situations. Whether there has been another RTS in the past that contained a pre upgraded starter unit is just completely irrelevant period. If you make the first Raid upgrade mandatory this could lead to increased problems against aggressive OKW or Assault Gren openings because Raid significantly decreases close range dps. The first engagement is very delicate and small changes like that can affect it greatly.
Why would 2 power levels separated by a global upgrade make Brits impossible to balance? The global upgrade just has to entail a sufficient trade off. (Price) If bolster is too strong increase its fuel price.
Again you're basing your argument on some made up principle without getting into the specifics of the actual game.
You trade in sandbags and on field heal which is a big part of what makes tommies strong. I'm not ableto be to predict on how it plays out without testing it extensively (which I haven't been able to do yet) but so are you. Your claim that it will either be spammed to the max or ignored is based on nothing. Not getting it early means denying yourself of significant capping power (especially if the first one was free). Spamming it would cripple your close range dps and mostly deny you of building sandbags. So why wouldn't 1-2 raid sections become meta?
10 Dec 2020, 06:19 AM
#236
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
[...]
Why would 2 power levels separated by a global upgrade make Brits impossible to balance? The global upgrade just has to entail a sufficient trade off. (Price) If bolster is too strong increase its fuel price.
[...]
this so often gets neglected or forgotten in discussions about the whole bolster conundrum, yet the price tag it is one of the most straightforward ways to adjust the timing/power level of the upgrade. of course it does result in a sudden power spike, but so does the first tank hitting the field. and as long as the cost is adequate both will mutually delay each other and force a tech decision to be made.
of course it can be argued that 5-men sections trade a bit too cost efficient at the moment, especially when hitting a critical mass, but this could also be offset by proper pricing, e.g. by implementing a higher reinforce cost after the upgrade to make 5-men sections slightly less economical.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
10 Dec 2020, 08:29 AM
#237
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
this so often gets neglected or forgotten in discussions about the whole bolster conundrum, yet the price tag it is one of the most straightforward ways to adjust the timing/power level of the upgrade. of course it does result in a sudden power spike, but so does the first tank hitting the field. and as long as the cost is adequate both will mutually delay each other and force a tech decision to be made.
of course it can be argued that 5-men sections trade a bit too cost efficient at the moment, especially when hitting a critical mass, but this could also be offset by proper pricing, e.g. by implementing a higher reinforce cost after the upgrade to make 5-men sections slightly less economical.
But why go to all that trouble?
Why not use the same system already implemented?
Simply make bolster increasing the entity available without actually providing the entity similar to PG/5 men/6 AssG/ 7 men conscript.
That would make Pre and post bolster units have the same cost efficiency.
10 Dec 2020, 08:39 AM
#238
Posts: 713 | Subs: 2
this so often gets neglected or forgotten in discussions about the whole bolster conundrum, yet the price tag it is one of the most straightforward ways to adjust the timing/power level of the upgrade. of course it does result in a sudden power spike, but so does the first tank hitting the field. and as long as the cost is adequate both will mutually delay each other and force a tech decision to be made.
of course it can be argued that 5-men sections trade a bit too cost efficient at the moment, especially when hitting a critical mass, but this could also be offset by proper pricing, e.g. by implementing a higher reinforce cost after the upgrade to make 5-men sections slightly less economical.
this, your comparison to the power spike that comes with the arrival of a tank is exactly what I meant.
But why go to all that trouble?
Why not use the same system already implemented?
Simply make bolster increasing the entity available without actually providing the entity similar to PG/5 men/6 AssG/ 7 men conscript.
That would make Pre and post bolster units have the same cost efficiency.
Why is it more trouble to increase the price of bolster than to completley change the way it works.
10 Dec 2020, 09:13 AM
#239
Posts: 366
But why go to all that trouble?
Why not use the same system already implemented?
Simply make bolster increasing the entity available without actually providing the entity similar to PG/5 men/6 AssG/ 7 men conscript.
That would make Pre and post bolster units have the same cost efficiency.
This I agree with. Make it a sidegrade costing muni instead so its not a flat benefit to all squads reduce the price of bolster if needed. This should slow down IS ability to gain double weapons and upgrade with pyro or healing.
Why is it more trouble to increase the price of bolster than to completley change the way it works.
In my opinnion, this wouldnt work because on one hand most people see it as a mandatory upgrade to compete and on the other would screw with your tech times and leave you very vulnerable.
10 Dec 2020, 09:19 AM
#240
Posts: 105
how about lower down resupply half-track cp from 4 to 3. compaered to other factions' hafltrack call-ins.
and adding vicker-k weapon box on hq for special weapons regiment.
and adding vicker-k weapon box on hq for special weapons regiment.
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