[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Was the M5 healing applied to the M5 found in Lend Lease too? Haven't checked yet, just putting here to not forget.

About Penals, I actually like them having the PTRS package, it seems really fitting. Overall Penals really don't feel "expendable" to me, yet nothing screams expendable like being handed an Anti-Tank Rifle and being told to shoot at that Heavy Panzer over there. I still think a second PTRS package should be unlocked at T4's construction, possibly with a Vet 3 penetration boost.

As for a rework to feel more expendable, I'm not sure what I would do about them personally, I've considered making them 5 (6 with PTRS upgrade) and giving them the Flamethrower back, but then you'd have to take away the SVT, but I like having a stock unit that uses the SVT. Maybe create a new unit that fields SVT and upgrades to PPSH, based along the lines of the 'Assault Squad' one in my signature.

Just had an idea sparked from two issues:

In my opinion, the T34/76 comes a bit too late (about 30s-1min or ~15-25 fuel). Second, absolutely nobody gets the mobilized reserves in T3 (the initial reason for this was that the 7 men upgrade came 'too late', but it turned out that the T70 is enough of a power spike in T3. As Soviets, there is no reason to delay tech for additional power).

We could potentially fix this by reducing the cost of Soviet T4 by about ~15-20 fuel, but move mobilized reserves to T4 for 20-25 fuel.

Potential issues:
Earlier SU85, Katy and call ins (including heavies)

Benefits:
- Soviets now get the T34 finally earlier than Ostheer gets the P4.
- Decreases the apparent benefit of T70. Soviets could now have a choice between building a T70 OR rushing a medium.
- Since the cost of 7 men Conscripts is now truely separate, both cost and abilities could finally be balanced towards the performance of the unit and don't have to bridge the gap between "must be good enough to spend resources on BUT not too good because you get it for free later anyway".
- T1 builds could become more popular again due to the earlier arrival of the T34 and some saved costs on T4 that can be invested into back teching, while T2 builds now carry an "additional cost" in Mobilized Reserves. All this while no unit of T1 needs to be changed.

Just had an idea sparked from two issues:

In my opinion, the T34/76 comes a bit too late (about 30s-1min or ~15-25 fuel). Second, absolutely nobody gets the mobilized reserves in T3 (the initial reason for this was that the 7 men upgrade came 'too late', but it turned out that the T70 is enough of a power spike in T3. As Soviets, there is no reason to delay tech for additional power).

We could potentially fix this by reducing the cost of Soviet T4 by about ~15-20 fuel, but move mobilized reserves to T4 for 20-25 fuel.

Potential issues:
Earlier SU85, Katy and call ins (including heavies)

Benefits:
- Soviets now get the T34 finally earlier than Ostheer gets the P4.
- Decreases the apparent benefit of T70. Soviets could now have a choice between building a T70 OR rushing a medium.
- Since the cost of 7 men Conscripts is now truely separate, both cost and abilities could finally be balanced towards the performance of the unit and don't have to bridge the gap between "must be good enough to spend resources on BUT not too good because you get it for free later anyway".
- T1 builds could become more popular again due to the earlier arrival of the T34 and some saved costs on T4 that can be invested into back teching, while T2 builds now carry an "additional cost" in Mobilized Reserves. All this while no unit of T1 needs to be changed.

So Mobilize Reserves no longer comes free with T4, but T4 itself is cheaper? Sounds reasonable and would certainly improve T-34/76 timing, but as you mentioned it would have impact on timing of call-ins. I think it wouldn't be THAT big, but I bet there's one specific scenario where it's busted. Earlier Katy and SU-85 does t sound so bav, neither really has much of a shock value as T-34/76. It would definitely require solid testing all around.

snip

I'd rather focus on encouraging the use of other T3 units instead of more T4 med rushing.
20 extra health for M5 at vet3 would go a long way as it arrives already when AT is abundant, it would do nothing vs dual shrecks or puma, but would be of tremendous help vs ATGs, SU-76 is being addressed, 7th man might not even need a change anymore if PTRS AT in mid/late game issue will be solved and M5+7th man could become a valid T-70 alternative leaving the decision to either go for T4 or pick SU-76 depending on situation.

Just had an idea sparked from two issues:
...

Pls lets not shorten the timing of units even more. If there is an issue with the T-34/76 timing and that is big "if" it the other main battle tank that should be delay and not the T-34/76.

If the the T-34/76 become available earlier it should also become more expensive since it should cost at least as much as Centaur/Ostwind.

Problems with proposed changes:
Very fast KV-1/Sherman 76
Overlap T-70/T-34/76

As for the issue of unlocking 7men with T3, there is simply very little reason for some one to stay at T3 tech since there are better units in T4. But if one made the KV-8 a call-in without the Tech 4 requirement than T3 strategies would be more viable.

So Mobilize Reserves no longer comes free with T4, but T4 itself is cheaper? Sounds reasonable and would certainly improve T-34/76 timing, but as you mentioned it would have impact on timing of call-ins. I think it wouldn't be THAT big, but I bet there's one specific scenario where it's busted. Earlier Katy and SU-85 does t sound so bav, neither really has much of a shock value as T-34/76. It would definitely require solid testing all around.

Yes that was the idea. Make Mobilized Reserves not free anymore, but T4 cheaper to almost offset the cost. With the total cost of both being slightly higher than currently to not give an overall buff to Conscript builds.

I'd rather focus on encouraging the use of other T3 units instead of more T4 med rushing.
20 extra health for M5 at vet3 would go a long way as it arrives already when AT is abundant, it would do nothing vs dual shrecks or puma, but would be of tremendous help vs ATGs, SU-76 is being addressed, 7th man might not even need a change anymore if PTRS AT in mid/late game issue will be solved and M5+7th man could become a valid T-70 alternative leaving the decision to either go for T4 or pick SU-76 depending on situation.

I don't think that the changes to neither M5 nor SU76 are enough to make them meta in the early-mid game. The SU76 struggles from the Soviet mid game weakness without an LV, and I the M5 just can't compete with the T70 in terms of AI firepower that Soviets need in that period. The best chance for the SU76 is if it gets something to distinguish it from the SU85 in the mid-late game (which is planned in the current patch). There is overall little reason to the the SU76 in the early-mid game for Soviets, so unless you propose a complete rework of the unit the SU76 is barely an option as a first unit.
But in the end these choices do not have to be exclusive.

Pls lets not shorten the timing of units even more. If there is an issue with the T-34/76 timing and that is big "if" it the other main battle tank that should be delay and not the T-34/76.

If the the T-34/76 become available earlier it should also become more expensive since it should cost at least as much as Centaur/Ostwind.

Problems with proposed changes:
Very fast KV-1/Sherman 76
Overlap T-70/T-34/76

Getting the T34 earlier is the whole purpose, because currently Soviet tech costs (185 fuel T1, 190 fuel for T2 +10 for at nades) are higher than Ostheers (175 fuel). If we assume that all mediums are balanced to their price, the T34 can come at almost the same time as the P4 in current T2 builds. Meaning you have the weaker medium tank for the same cost at the same timing. In my eyes that is the main reason why the T34 is considered a bad choice: You're on the backfoot for the whole time until you get the second T34 and even then only barely equal. The only way to reach a critical mass with T34s is at 3 tanks. Ostheer is obviously a bit special because of their T4, that's why I suggested to increase the total tech cost for Soviets a bit and offset the earlier medium.

The overal of T70 and T34 is intended by design and as I stated in my post it would potentially help reducing reliance on the T70, which could create more build orders for Soviets.

Regarding the call ins: I already stated they might be an issue. However the 76mm Sherman then comes at around similar timing as the OST P4, which is fine since these units are similarly strong. KV-1 needs a slight nerf regardless of this.

Bear in mind though that ALL of this "very fast" fielding of units how you call it means that Soviets get neither a T70 nor 7 men Conscripts. So their performance is not comparable to the current meta. Soviet AI would be bad if they decide to rush a tank. Which is actually good, because it allows more choices in gameplay again.

Getting the T34 earlier is the whole purpose, because currently Soviet tech costs (185 fuel T1, 190 fuel for T2 +10 for at nades) are higher than Ostheers (175 fuel). If we assume that all mediums are balanced to their price, the T34 can come at almost the same time as the P4 in current T2 builds. Meaning you have the weaker medium tank for the same cost at the same timing. In my eyes that is the main reason why the T34 is considered a bad choice: You're on the backfoot for the whole time until you get the second T34 and even then only barely equal. The only way to reach a critical mass with T34s is at 3 tanks. Ostheer is obviously a bit special because of their T4, that's why I suggested to increase the total tech cost for Soviets a bit and offset the earlier medium.

The overal of T70 and T34 is intended by design and as I stated in my post it would potentially help reducing reliance on the T70, which could create more build orders for Soviets.

T-34/76 was used both in WC2019 (35 being built being the most popular soviet medium tank) and WC2020 so I am not sure who considers a bad unit. On the other hand considering it a bad choice does really say much since T-34/86 is considered to be one of the most cost efficient mediums, 76mm Sherman was used even by USF and KV-1 as you say needs slight nerf.

Regarding the call ins: I already stated they might be an issue. However the 76mm Sherman then comes at around similar timing as the OST P4, which is fine since these units are similarly strong. KV-1 needs a slight nerf regardless of this.

That is debatable.

Bear in mind though that ALL of this "very fast" fielding of units how you call it means that Soviets get neither a T70 nor 7 men Conscripts. So their performance is not comparable to the current meta. Soviet AI would be bad if they decide to rush a tank. Which is actually good, because it allows more choices in gameplay again.

There has been a trend of making powerful units available earlier and T-34/76 becoming available earlier was caused by that, so making T-34/76 available earlier is not the solution. If there a problem the other mediums should be pushed back.

I agree that the others meds need to be pushed back instead of the t34 coming sooner. The lv fase is already very short. This would give the su76 m5 m20 etc some much needed play time. Most players go for 1 or if feeling freeky 2 light tanks/lv per game.

I'd love to see mediums (and premium mediums/meat shield heavies) come later to open up more room for light play. As a result of the delayed mediums however I think they would need an AI buff to ensure they still instill fear when after added time to prepare for their arrival

If ram is being held behind veterancy, it might be wise to decrease exp needed to get vet 1. Just saying.

T-34/76 was used both in WC2019 (35 being built being the most popular soviet medium tank) and WC2020 so I am not sure who considers a bad unit. On the other hand considering it a bad choice does really say much since T-34/86 is considered to be one of the most cost efficient mediums, 76mm Sherman was used even by USF and KV-1 as you say needs slight nerf.

ram is a huge factor to the cost efficiency of the T-34... removing ram has the potential to turn the T-34-76 bad as its base stats are simply subpar...

either revert the ram nerf or buff the base stats of the T-34-76 if you want to remove ram from the game as with the patch

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/288466#Comment_288466

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There's been some updates to the mod and here are the changes for Soviets.

just revert the ram change already.... trying to nerf ram like this isnt gonna work at all unless the ram CONSISTENTLY applies engine damage/stun to its target... and even if it does then the vet 0 T-34 needs a performance buff to compensate for its subpar stats without ram


also the maxim hasnt been changed... its still utter shit in its current state... buff its suppression soo that it doesnt take FOUR seconds to suppress at least...


lastly the T-34 still comes later than any of its contemporary medium tanks due to excessive teching costs.... this makes no sense at all...

Now i'm not saying the ram change should be reverted, but this 2nd iteration probably won't change much. An engine crippled t34 in your opponennts backlines is probably still dead. Even if it can start reversing, which I hope it accepts queued up commands while stunned, it will have little to no chance of ever making it out.

I'm concerned about the rotation rate of the su-76. Wasn't the issue with the m10 crush due to the rotation rate being above 32? If so wouldn't this just make this possible with the su76?

The I'm concerned about the rotation rate of the su-76. Wasn't the issue with the m10 crush due to the rotation rate being above 32? If so wouldn't this just make this possible with the su76?

The SU-76 lost its human crush, but it hasn't be noted. Will be sure to get that addressed.

Please forgive me if this is the wrong place to post, this is my idea for a soviet commander. (If a mod reads this, feel free to relocate it or tell me where to post it)

This is a new commander idea along with Partisan rework

Infiltration and Liberation

0 - KV1

0 - Cammo Zis gun

2 - Partisan


6 - Fear Propaganda Artillery

8 - B4


Partisan Rework

Cost increased to 270 mp, pop cap 6


Vet 0- Squad starts with 2 PPSH and 2 Nagant M1895 (Retains camo) +10% Sight

Vet 1- Squad obtains First strike, weapon cool down -15%, received accuracy -10%, Concussive Trap Ability.

Vet 2- Replaces 2 Nagant M1895with Strom Troopers MP40s, weapon cool down -10%, accuracy +20%, +25% Molotov cocktails throwing distance

Vet 3- additional model equipped with Ober k98 added to the squad. Received accuracy -10%, weapon cool down -15%, accuracy +20%

Reasoning

The commander is supposed to ramp up as the battle progresses through the use of infiltration units distrusting the foes operations through ambushes and harassment (Parisians and cammo Zis AT gun). The successes of the operations have encouraged greater support from the motherland and have disheartened the foe (Propaganda Barrage) as comrade Stalin prepares for a full liberation through the use of his Hammer (B4) and his Anvil (Kv1).

Partisan are known to be operating behind enemy lines with limited support the home armies. As such their weapon load out should reflect this. Through successful ambushes and combat, they obtain skills and weapons alike - usually from their fallen foes - hence why they obtain mp40s for instance. In addition, those of the early days will recall partisan spawning in with random weapons, including German ones such as the lmg42. Through the rework of this unit and new commander, it will diversify the soviet Meta in all game modes as well as bring into use a unit which has been in the shadows for far too long.
Overall the new partisans have higher dps than the original, as such, their cost have been increased and pop cap have been increased

Subjected to change.

The SU-76 lost its human crush, but it hasn't be noted. Will be sure to get that addressed.

Good to hear! Good work as always.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/288466#Comment_288466

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There's been some updates to the mod and here are the changes for Soviets.

Couldn't have asked for better notes.
Mobilize reserves just became a viable T3 purchase.

Glad to see ram allowing a chance to escape with T34 now as well as better SU-76 vet.

All these new Soviet changes look amazing! I'm confused about the change to Mobilise Reserves though. It is now unlocked when you buy the Tier 4 building and not when it finishes construction? My concern is that even before it's never worthwhile spending the cash to get it in Tier 3 when it unlocks for free when you get Tier 4. If that's the case then it's even more of a no-brainer to just build tier 4 instead of unlocking it at tier 3. Making the tier 3 upgrade cheaper would have been an interesting alternative.