[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

JLI never required you to pay extra 160mp and you could call them in the second game started, much, much earlier then penals and for much lower overall cost.

You might also have memory problems, because JLI have a powerful weapon upgrade that snipes models easily while penals have nothing.

Once more projecting you own flaws on to others.

You seem to have completely forgotten that Penal have a 1+1 weapons upgrades available to them PTRS and the doctrinal PPshs.

In the end of the day, if in your opinion, it is absolutely essential for Penal to have a weapon upgrade feel free to explain exactly what that weapon should be and what other changes should come with it.

So conscripts have not received any buff? Nice theory but not connection to reality

That's not anywhere near of what he said

Right after you provide replays where you're killing anything that isn't decrewed team weapon with satchel.
Your claim was made first so ....

If that counts as a fully fleshed out argument now I am still waiting for your two previous claims.

That's not anywhere near of what he said
...

A) Katitof claimed conscripts opening are not stronger
B) Katitof claimed there is no power creep

In march 28th 2017 Penals received the latest major overhaul and remained dominant meta after that. Sine the Conscript have received a number of buff and recently (after WC2019) become the dominant meta. That is strong indication of the conscripting power creeping Penals.

(edited and added Katitof claimed conscripts opening are not stronger)

Thanks for taking the time to actually make a test and sharing the results, unlike some other people.

How many test did yo do and at what range?

But what make think that a 300 manpower unit should be able win vs a 280 manpower unit with 120 munition upgrade to begin with? Especially since USF faction was designed to carried by riflemen and the come also come with snare (and grenades as some would say).

As for weapon upgrade I have pointed out many time that Penal are badly designed and if they are an "alternative infatry" they should follow PF design and start weaker and have to upgrade with a weapon.

Finally people retreat before the squad dies from small arm fire.

8 tests: mid range / green cover

Of course I would assume that a 280mp+120mun unit beats a 300mp unit. But lets keep two aspects in mind: Rifleman have far more utility on top of their damage and Penals have nowhere to go in late, they don't have the chance to get some sort of AI upgrade for munition.


A weaker start and a stronger lategame would be fine if you ask me. In early game they have quite a bit of power, but imo you don't really need Penals because Cons give more mapcontrol, scale better and have more utility. In mid and late game Penals can't compete with Axis AI infantry unless you get some weapon drops, so Soviet has to rely on Guards or Shock Troops. It would be fine if Penals would have a later power spike and thus could compete with axis stock infantry AI units later on, so that there is a more diverse approach to soviet commanders without Guards or Shock Troops.



Atm Penals have three problems:

1. Bleeding (and scaling):
27mp reinforce combined with only -15% received acc at Vet3 means that Penals will bleed you hard. All the way up to Vet 3 they have a target size of 1, at Vet3 they have 0.85. Any other similar non-engineer infantry unit has one or more of the following aspects: Lower reinforcement costs, lower target size, higher armor or damage reduction.

2. Utility:
There is simply none with the rare exception when you want to blow up a building or a bunker fast (if you got around it).

3. Damage drop:
Because they have no upgradeable weapons their damage drops harder with each lost man than it does at other units which keep their strongest weapons until the last 1-2 soldiers ("To the last man" doesn't make up for that).

General Gawain, testing in green cover requires more tests because the fights are more decided by who randomly drops a model first and less by who is actually better.

At least compared to Stg Volks, Penals deal more damage if both squads lose models equally until both squads lose about 3 man where things get roughly even. An actual comparison is more complicated since Penals also lose models a bit quicker, but I think it is safe to say that it is not their damage that makes them the subpar choice compared to Conscripts.

Gawain thanks for explaining to vipper why a simple dps comparison doesn't show the whole picture.

Another way to look at your suggestion might be to make penals come out with 5 men, and then mobilise reserves gives them +2 men, making total of 7 for late game.

IMO no other tweaks would be needed then and it seems an elegant solution. Helps incentivise going for MR when it helps both penals and cons, plus with 5 man penals and ptrs changes they'll still be reasonable deterrent Vs light vehicles in early game.

I like the suggestion of having them come out with 5 men for something like 270 mp. Some of the RA bonus might need to be transferred to vet 0. They start too slow and bleed too much in larger game modes.

They shouldn't get 7 models with MR. MR should lower the reinforce cost and add the sixth man.

Also, they should get some type of sight bonus and camo with the PTRS. That would also help with MP bleed and would turn an otherwise lackluster unit into something more useful. It would also help offset the ISU nerf.

General Gawain, testing in green cover requires more tests because the fights are more decided by who randomly drops a model first and less by who is actually better.

I should have done about a hundred tests to get a somehow reliable result, that isn't affect by RNG anymore. Sorry that I only did little more than a handful. For me it was more about proving the tendence, that damage output is only one factor and other factors might still turn the outcome of a battle. For that outcome 8 tests already showed that Rifles equipped with Bars are even at least, maybe even better in a firefight.

At least compared to Stg Volks, Penals deal more damage if both squads lose models equally until both squads lose about 3 man where things get roughly even. An actual comparison is more complicated since Penals also lose models a bit quicker, but I think it is safe to say that it is not their damage that makes them the subpar choice compared to Conscripts.

Absolutely right. We discussed their flaws already. But as we saw in the past it is either all Cons or all Penals. Why not setting them apart from each other, defining different roles? Cons are absoluetly fine now, so we shouldn't try to challenge that with Penals again.

Making them a cheaper 5 man early AI unit (with the PTRS option), which gets better with T3 (individual squad upgrade for munition which grants sixth man and a weapon like DP-28 LMG) and T4 (MR global upgrade which grant received accuray bonus and/or slightly lowered reinforcement cost) would make them competitive in mid game and late game while not too powerful in early game where Conscript stay the workhorse. On top of that you maybe could take a commander without Guards/Shock Troops because Penals could fit that hole somehow reliable.

V5 changes

Mechanized Armor Kampenya
Soviet tech costs are being adjusted with the Soviet Tankiovy Battalion having its price reduced while the price of the Mechanized Armor Kampenya has been increased. With the nerf to units such as the T70, there is no longer a reason for Soviet LVs to arrive much later than their counterparts.
- Cost from 240 manpower and 90 fuel to 280 manpower and 100 fuel

Tankiovy Battalion
- Cost from 240 manpower and 85 fuel to 200 manpower and 75 fuel

Penal Battalion
Penals are receiving a slight manpower reduction to better match their performance, timing, and tech cost in the early game.
- Manpower cost from 300 to 290

M5 Halftrack Quad Upgrade
The AA mode of the Quad has been increased further to improve its performance against aircraft.
- AA Chance from 3% to 5%

now that you are looking at soviet tech consider reducing the manpower cost for soviet teching... a quick look at the insane MP cost should point you to the right direction

Imo the biggest issue with Penals overall is their dire lack of support tools. MGs, AT Guns, Indirects, and Snares are all things that are quite costly for them to get ignoring doctrinal units.

The support weapons require a backtech to T2 which costs 160 manpower and 15 fuel plus build time. This is an expensive endeavor seeing how expensive T4 is for the Soviets to get and even late game this is not exactly easy to afford. It can cause delays in timings for things like a T34 but is an almost necessary back tech because it is very hard to play the late game without AT guns (and no PTRS do not make a good substitute late game against stuff like Panthers).
A true snare comes from conscript squads but only after you pay for the 150 manpower and 15 fuel side tech that only affects conscripts. Similar to T2 this is expensive to get and has a very limited effect for it's cost as when going Penals you'll probably only have 1 or maybe 2 conscripts kicking around.

So a possible way to buff penals could be to make these tech easier to get.
For example making it easier to backtech to T2 in the late game would make it easier for Penal builds to get AT guns when they really need them. Something like once T4 is built it reduces the cost of T1 and T2 to just 50 manpower (-110 manpower and -15 fuel in cost).

The T1 backtech would have little use but would be there if someone wanted it. Mainly though the much cheaper T2 would make the late game for Penals a lot easier since they could offset their weakness late game by getting AT guns and MGs to better support them.

The other option comes from an idea in MirageFla's personal balance change mod which made it so once T1 was built the Molotov for conscripts was automatically researched.
So what if something similar was done with the current grenade package?
Whether it gets researched for free or or ends up getting a reduction down to like 75 manpower and 5 fuel (so 75 manpower and 10 fuel cheaper). Either would help make it easier for conscripts to get snares which would help give PTRS penals more power by making it more likely to have a snare to combine with them. Molotovs would also be a nice bonus to those conscripts although the AT nade is the bigger benefit.

I think a change along these lines would be the most beneficial and impactful way to help Penals and make them able to better stand on their own. A cost reduction on Penals is nice to see but isn't gonna be a super massive buff that makes them viable. Honestly I would return them to 300 manpower and look for something more impactful maybe like the ideas above.

V5 changes

Very nice. Should be easier to go penals now and have a choice between t70 and su76 for earlier game presence.

Yeah, so we will never see real changes for the T-34 / 34-85. Okay.

Yeah, so we will never see real changes for the T-34 / 34-85. Okay.

This should happen in the next commanders patch for the 34-85.