[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

This could be an interesting option although I think giving them a 7th man isn't gonna happen. Currently that slight reinforce reduction on the testing server is a nice addition but I do wonder how a bigger buff would help with that.

Maybe you could try giving penals a munition upgrade that gives them better dps to make it so they don't act exactly like 7 man cons? Cons would be the more durable and cost effective ones while Penals become harder hitting and better at attacking late game? The ATV could fit into that idea although idk how to exactly what the upgrade should give.

If i'm entirely honest, now that the door is opened by the Conscript seven-man upgrade, I don't see giving Penals a seven-man upgrade as entirely out of hand. Of course, there need not be an extra man added to the squad with a "mobilise reserves" upgrade, merely an upgrade in certain statistics. (Or the addition of ATVs, as previously mentioned)

If a seventh man did end up being a Commissar, he could well be given just a Nagant revolver. More a "Thematic" extra man, than a functional increase in firepower. It synergises well with "To the Last man", anyway.

Either way, i think it might be a nice area to explore, design-wise.

i actually dont see maxim spams alot... mg42s definitely more common than maxims as far as ive seen...

I have never seen mass MG42 spam in team games. I've only seen mass Maxim spams in large team games where I often play amongst the lower brackets with friends, but thankfully, no Maxim spam in mid-level 2v2s/1v1s.

I have never seen mass MG42 spam in team games. I've only seen mass Maxim spams in large team games where I often play amongst the lower brackets with friends, but thankfully, no Maxim spam in mid-level 2v2s/1v1s.

The issue is the maxim is worse then an mg 42 so you need to built more to get the same result.
Imo maxim spam is easier to punish because of this.

I have never seen mass MG42 spam in team games. I've only seen mass Maxim spams in large team games where I often play amongst the lower brackets with friends, but thankfully, no Maxim spam in mid-level 2v2s/1v1s.

I have been attacked on numerous occasions by triple maxim openers from top 100 Sov players in 3v3 RT OKW. Usually on Across the Rhine right side.

I have been attacked on numerous occasions by triple maxim openers from top 100 Sov players in 3v3 RT OKW. Usually on Across the Rhine right side.

Yeah, Maxim spam is pretty common in 3v3. I don't even want to imagine how it would be if Maxim was buffed.

Actually you are the one contradicting yourself.
If unit is not cost effective individually building more of them makes thing worse not better.

Penals usually aren't cost efficient in 4v4. The reinforce cost is too much. They're okay at the start, particularly against OKW, not so much against Ost. I've never found less than three to work okay, so yes, building more makes it better, at least up until three.

I have been attacked on numerous occasions by triple maxim openers from top 100 Sov players in 3v3 RT OKW. Usually on Across the Rhine right side.

I had no idea that Maxim spam happened even among top level players. How interesting.

I have been attacked on numerous occasions by triple maxim openers from top 100 Sov players in 3v3 RT OKW. Usually on Across the Rhine right side.

never saw it as top 200 in the past and as 500 right now in 2v2... or at least its a bit more rare than mg42 spam... in the cases where i have seen it (3v3/4v4 usually)... it was usually against OKW and done by a fairly low level player...

in any case 3 mg42s > 3 maxims in terms of raw performance... maybe the reason why you are seeing maxim spam as OKW is because OKW lacks the tools to deal with machineguns overall and the 50 cal and the vickers are in factions with good line infantry...

in any case this might be just an OKW thing overall and thus the maxim SHOULD be buffed but OKW SHOULD also get the tools to deal with it...



any ost player that complains of maxim spam doe is just scrubby... 1 Flametruck and the maxim spam is toast... literally

? Base Grens and Volks are viable lategame, but Penals not? Thats an opinion and rather controversial. Penals were fine in the Okw-Sov matchup before 7man Cons got introduced. Its just that Osttruppen and 5man Grens are too good and 7man Cons perform very well. Penals are combatwise very similar to upgraded Pfusies and nobody says that this unit underperforms. Penals have surperior veterancy boni compared to almost every other squad. And with the upcoming changes they will be even better. They dont need an offensive weapon upgrade.

I think the M3 needs a little bit more armor. It dies too fast vs small arms in the mod. And the t34 timing is rather bad compared to the ost p4 (and okw p4 when bg into schwerer rush). There could be a subtech for katy, su86 and every doc tank, while t34 and Mobilize Reserves get unlocked with the cheaper t4 (something like 60/30 fuel instead of 90)

I think this stems from a combination of factors outside Penals.

1- T70 was much stronger. T1 openings would always mean that you get a slightly (5f) cheaper tech and you are skipping the AT nade upgrade.

2- OKW mechanized was mostly mandatory. This both delays MG34 and snares. Depending at which timeframe you look upon, you have PF with AT nades at T0 now. Rak has been improved to be more responsive early game compared to late game cloak cheese.

3- Add constant buffs and improvements to SP.

4- Factors 2 and 3 are releveant towards how viable the M3A1 is, which basically ties if T1 is viable at all in Penal builds.

5- The weakness to Penal builds is how fast you can transition towards medium tanks. A mechanized player will start to have problems towards the midgame due to how costly is to back tech into healing.

6- Flak HT is good against T1 openings but gives you a certain weakness once the T70 roles out as you don't have a secure hardcounter in the Puma. But the T70 is getting nerfed in this patch.

I wonder if we gave a go on idea of penals getting ooraah once mobilize reserves has been teched. It would penals a bit more choice in lategame, as they could close distance to more ideal combat ranges faster and being behind tech would prevent cheesing it in the earlygame. Of course ptrs package would be needed to take into consideration.

If i'm entirely honest, now that the door is opened by the Conscript seven-man upgrade, I don't see giving Penals a seven-man upgrade as entirely out of hand. Of course, there need not be an extra man added to the squad with a "mobilise reserves" upgrade, merely an upgrade in certain statistics. (Or the addition of ATVs, as previously mentioned)

If a seventh man did end up being a Commissar, he could well be given just a Nagant revolver. More a "Thematic" extra man, than a functional increase in firepower. It synergises well with "To the Last man", anyway.

Either way, i think it might be a nice area to explore, design-wise.

7 men penals commissar update could be funny. Maybe balance team can "try" it.

I wonder if we gave a go on idea of penals getting ooraah once mobilize reserves has been teched. It would penals a bit more choice in lategame, as they could close distance to more ideal combat ranges faster and being behind tech would prevent cheesing it in the earlygame. Of course ptrs package would be needed to take into consideration.

Yeah this in an intetesting idea. The most problamatic thing would be the at satchal.

Yeah this in an intetesting idea. The most problamatic thing would be the at satchal.

You can disable abilities on upgrades/replace them.
PTRS cons are an example of both.
PTRS penals wouldn't get it.

I have been attacked on numerous occasions by triple maxim openers from top 100 Sov players in 3v3 RT OKW. Usually on Across the Rhine right side.

Across The Rheine beach side has OP MG42 positions. 2 MG42s can lock the whole area with double pios. Soviets usually need 3 maxims to lock it down. It's just a poorly designed lane, with heavy cover that can lock down half the side. OKW players usually go for double kubel there with aggressive sturmpios behind heavy cover, inducing minimal bleed on yourself, while bleeding and denying the enemy (or you go like a certain OKW level 18 player, spam volks, get them close range and then complain how my rifles are OP close range, even though they couldn't displace (with RE) one sturmipio squad behind yellow cover). Biggest trouble is that OKW opening vs USF. Double kubel with sturmpios. At least for me (don't know how to exactly counter double kubel + sturmpios on that map lane as USF)

Maxim needs only a price reduction, unless a whole rework is in store for Soviets.
It's weak, but not UP. One shouldn't really compare it with the MG42 because one is in a faction that relies on strong teams and Soviets rely on numbers and versatility. Hence, the units themselves are not the problem, but the tech design, IMHO.

I wonder if we gave a go on idea of penals getting ooraah once mobilize reserves has been teched. It would penals a bit more choice in lategame, as they could close distance to more ideal combat ranges faster and being behind tech would prevent cheesing it in the earlygame. Of course ptrs package would be needed to take into consideration.

Just no way, use a commander that use ammo to give speed boost like everybody else. Having everything core in Soviets who already have too can do everything units would be too much.

Penals should definitely not get sprint or proper 7th dude, that would make them oppressively potent. But a vet 3 officer with basically no combat performance could be an option to make up for the lack of survivability in the late game, as suggested above. It would be pretty flavourful, wouldn't suddenly turn them into stock shock troops, but it would give them more staying power like cons have, but in a less consistent, risky way.

Penals should definitely not get sprint or proper 7th dude, that would make them oppressively potent. But a vet 3 officer with basically no combat performance could be an option to make up for the lack of survivability in the late game, as suggested above. It would be pretty flavourful, wouldn't suddenly turn them into stock shock troops, but it would give them more staying power like cons have, but in a less consistent, risky way.

Vet can't be the only gate to scaling. If it is for all factions that's fine, but for only 1 its devistating.

Vet can't be the only gate to scaling. If it is for all factions that's fine, but for only 1 its devistating.

I think it woudl be fine in the case of Penals specifically, because building new ones in late game is something you never really want to do anyway (this is when fresh cons kick in with MR as a better pick), and those built earlier have vet 3 pretty much guaranteed if still alive.

So here's maybe an idea for what mobilize reserves could give to penals.

Upon getting unlocking Mobilize Reserves:
Reduces reinforcement cost of Penals by 2
Unlocks the 'Reinstate' upgrade

Reinstate upgrade
Cost: 50 munitions - Requires vet 2
Grants:
+10% weapon accuracy
+10% ROF
To the Last Man benefits are increased
"After much sacrifice Penals can redeem themselves and are reinstated to their former positions"

The main idea I guess is to make Penals hit harder without gaining much on the defensive end. They would still bleed pretty bad but gain the upside of having much better DPS to hopefully keep them relevant in the late game. This should keep them different from 7 man Cons as Cons would be much more efficient manpower wise late game. Penals would be much better at assaulting positions due to their high DPS.
This would all need testing ofc but this is just a basic idea for what they could get.

DPS ranges 10/20/35

Penal squad vet 3
41.3/33.6/20.6

LMG Grenadier squad vet 3
23.9/27.1/23.7

ST44 VG sqaud vet 3
33.2/24.4/11.7