[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

They will still be cheap meatshields, and have always been used as a replacement for grens

+1

I'd consider making ostruppen build time quicker, e.g. 8-15 secs; this helps make it a panic crutch buy at T1 when you really need more boots on the ground and helps balance it's slower arrival

Delaying them and consecutive squads is the whole point of the changes.
That's polar opposite of what you're suggesting.

They will still be cheap meatshields, and have always been used as a replacement for grens

Doesn't matter how they have always been used if it's incorrect to how they are meant to be used. The m10 always was used as the best AI vehicle in the game until it wasn't because that was not how it was supposed to be used. Ostroppen are bodies for a fragile faction, not infantry replacements

They will still be cheap meatshields, and have always been used as a replacement for grens

True, but the only reason they were a replacement for grens is the fact that they were OP. I mean, their reinforce cost is 16. Stack that and throughout the game you have a much lower MP bleed. Considering that they can hold their ground quite nicely and you have a good replacement. They deserve a nerf. 16 reinforce, low cost, high model count all scream "meatshield" but so far they are not only a meatshield but a decent replacement... hence the nerfs.

True, but the only reason they were a replacement for grens is the fact that they were OP. I mean, their reinforce cost is 16.

This is common misrepresentation, that if something is used 99% of the time its automatically OP.

WC was OP objectively. VSL was OP objectively.

Osttroopens used not because they are OP, but because they are better then grens.

One can care less that osttroopen are 16 to reinforce, if they cant do shit. But they can. Osttroopen combat perfomance is better then grenadiers across the board. They are better vs all other mainlines, then grens. Hell, osttroopens requare less support and less babysitting the grens, think about it.

Grens have upper hand when they get LMGs, but at the same time by the time they get LMGs Ost can have PGs\222\251 on the field, so there is more then enouth firepower to support ostts and this lack of grens LMG wont be feelable. And the LMG window of opportunity and possible late game fire power are two things where grens are better then ostts, in other departments ostts are better hands down.

In late game ostts are worst then vet 3 LMG grens, but at the same time in late game there is so much shit happening that survivability and field presence is >>> then raw firepower. And ostts are supperior then grens in this regard aswell.

No matter what changes dev team brings to ostts (unless locking them behind CP) they are always will be better chose over grens, if grens arent changed.

In 3v3 and 4v4 ostts are meh, and always were meh before or after the change. In 1v1 and 2v2, ostts strats are weaker now, but still much stronger then grens strats. Meta will be the same, just a bit harder to pull off.

I like most the changes so far, I still through think 5 man is abit strong but their is a difference.

Cant say much about ostruppen as I dont see them enough in team games.

I am curious if their will be any changes to grens at any given time and would like to make a wild suggestion. What about changing their native 0.91 ra to receive damage? Considering everyone complains about how fragile they are, worth a shot?

Edit: or give them the conscript treatment and have 10% dr come at vet 1.

with the possibility of facing 3 factions that has an abundance of artillery, the few artillery left to axis needs something up its sleeve to counter this, until something else of similar value is presented to axis artillery, i think counter-arty needs to be where its at.

Uh you mean like the massive buff that Werfer is getting that gives it a Vet 1 Calliope barrage? Also, Brits having an "abundance of artillery" I feel like artillery interactions between factions is more or less fine- if anything the fact that USF and UKF currently have to crutch on doctrinal units for those roles is most problematic- though Scott and Heavy Mortar Barrage changes should bring that in line to a degree.

Ostheer

Infanterie Kompanie and Battle Phase 1

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Osttruppen
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Since you have decided to practically kill the Osttruppen commander I would advice to at least kill only one commander instead of two and replace the Ostt with something actually useful in defensive commander. "Even hull down" will do.

Doesn't matter how they have always been used if it's incorrect to how they are meant to be used. The m10 always was used as the best AI vehicle in the game until it wasn't because that was not how it was supposed to be used. Ostroppen are bodies for a fragile faction, not infantry replacements

Moving Osttruppen to t1 in there current state will kill two doctrines, all I'm asking for is a minor improvement to their combat ability by removing their out of cover penalty to compensate for being move to t1. They will still be the worst then Grens in everyway except for manpower cost.


Osttruppen:

damage 8 x squad size 6 = total damage 48 (10 shots to kill one model)

Accuracy near 0.633 (When in cover)
Accuracy mid 0.598 (When in cover)
Accuracy far 0.564 (When in cover)

vet 3

Accuracy near 0.8862
Accuracy mid 0.8372
Accuracy far 0.7896


Grenadiers

damage 16 x squad size 4 = total damage 64 (5 shots to kill one model)

Accuracy near 0.748
Accuracy mid 0.661
Accuracy far 0.598

Vet3

Accuracy near 1.0472
Accuracy mid 0.9254
Accuracy far 0.8372

https://coh2.serealia.ca/#65 where I got the stats

This is common misrepresentation, that if something is used 99% of the time its automatically OP.

WC was OP objectively. VSL was OP objectively.

Osttroopens used not because they are OP, but because they are better then grens.

If 200mp unit is better then 240mp unit, when latter is considered fine(the fact that the only change grens got was formation is testament to their own balance), then that is dictionary definition of OP unit.

If 200mp unit is better then 240mp unit, when latter is considered fine(the fact that the only change grens got was formation is testament to their own balance), then that is dictionary definition of OP unit.

but there not, so your argument crumbles. just because grens are not being changed too much, doesn't mean there fine, the balance team is making small changes and being cautious which is the right thing to do.

but there not, so your argument crumbles. just because grens are not being changed too much, doesn't mean there fine, the balance team is making small changes and being cautious which is the right thing to do.

They are considered fine by balance team.

While I not always agree with them, I'd take their word for it over someone who thinks ost can be played like USF against USF.

They are considered fine by balance team.

While I not always agree with them, I'd take their word for it over someone who thinks ost can be played like USF against USF.

No-one of the balance team said they are fine. The only thing they said since all this patching started, is that its hard to change grens, because cons vs grens match up will be most likely broken.

At best they said that they are "alright" at best. If I'm wrong here, please provide quite where its stated that grens are considered fine and balanced.

No-one of the balance team said they are fine. The only thing they said since all this patching started, is that its hard to change grens, because cons vs grens match up will be most likely broken.

At best they said that they are "alright" at best. If I'm wrong here, please provide quite where its stated that grens are considered fine and balanced.

No one also said they need any stat changes.

Suggestions for Ottruppen changes since they are being moved to T1:

squad cost from 200 to 220

Out of cover penalty removed

slot weapon accuracy penalty removed

LMG42 upgrade removed

merge ability added (cannot merge with Grenadiers or Panzer grenadiers)

No one also said they need any stat changes.

And this means that balance team just didnt say anything, therefore saying that they are considered good\bad by balance team is just a false claims.

And this means that balance team just didnt say anything, therefore saying that they are considered good\bad by balance team is just a false claims.

How do I put it out to you...
The goal of this patch is addressing as much core army problems as possible.
Grens were addressed by changing formation only, because that is all they need, because they are fine and just because couple of Meinstein worshippers and grenblob scrublords do not agree is not going to change the fact that grens are perfectly fine and balance infantry that does all it needs to do for its lowest of all mainline inf price.

Grenadier cost the same as Conscripts and the require a building.

There are high rank players that think the Grenadiers need buffs.

Grenadier cost the same as Conscripts and the require a building.

And a grand total of zero additional costs to unlock their full kit + early game weapon upgrade that does not require end game side tech.

There are high rank players that think the Grenadiers need buffs.

There are top 10 players who think cons should not lose 10% acc at vet3.
There are high rank players who genuinely think and openly say HMG42 is a bad unit.
Stormjeager is a high level player and you disagreed with him instead of treating him like a balance pope.

Your point?
High level player opinions matter only if they support your agenda and otherwise you just know better then them?

Also, if you value so much opinions of high rank players, here, have a knowledge nugget from master league discord where we, low rank peasants are not allowed.

Its an opinion of multiple high level players.

And a grand total of zero additional costs to unlock their full kit + early game weapon upgrade that does not require end game side tech.

No matter how many times you repeat the silly argument about side tech the argument remains mute.

Grenadier do not come wtih rifle grenades and LMGs they have to invest in tech to have access to them. This has been explained to you multiple times even by moderators of this site.

There are top 10 players who think cons should not lose 10% acc at vet3.

Feel free to provide quote.

There are high rank players who genuinely think and openly say HMG42 is a bad unit.
Stormjeager is a high level player and you disagreed with him instead of treating him like a balance pope.

Stormjeager thought that autofire is more effective than manual aim for the brummbar, you can treat him like the "balance pope" if you want.

The difference here is that focus on what somebody posts and not the person, so for me there is no "balance pope", we are can all be wrong about things.

Other hand everything for you is personal and you simply disagree with anything and everything I post because you do not actually care about the point, in pure "forum warrior" fasion.

Your point?

How do I put it out to you...
The goal of this patch is addressing as much core army problems as possible.
Grens were addressed by changing formation only, because that is all they need, because they are fine and just because couple of Meinstein worshippers and grenblob scrublords do not agree is not going to change the fact that grens are perfectly fine and balance infantry that does all it needs to do for its lowest of all mainline inf price.

My point is that your claim only "couple of Meinstein worshippers and grenblob scrublords" think the grenadier need changes is simply false.

High level player opinions matter only if they support your agenda and otherwise you just know better then them?

Projecting your own flaws onto other as usual.

Also, if you value so much opinions of high rank players, here, have a knowledge nugget from master league discord where we, low rank peasants are not allowed.

Its an opinion of multiple high level players.

If "low rank peasants" are not allow "no ranked peasants" like you are not allowed either.

As for your "knowledge nugget" it does not seem to have any results so it does not really have that much "knowledge" in it.