[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:24 AMMr Carmine

I thouhgt okw panther also had 9 secs reload before but i was mistaken.

But in the end allies dont go meds in bigger games because how much better the panther is and recource inflation allows them to come at the same time and easely be replaced if lost. In turn allied td's make axis mediums redundant but keep panthers and tiger/kt in check.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:47 AMVipper

The problem of JP simply is not the Panther.

If one want to fight allied medium one has little reason to invest more resources than unit he fighting especially since JP can not chase the medium and can even be circle strafed.

One is facing allied medium he is better of building a PzIV that can fight them but also has AI for similar price.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:47 AMVipper

The problem of JP simply is not the Panther.

If one want to fight allied medium one has little reason to invest more resources than unit he fighting especially since JP can not chase the medium and can even be circle strafed.

One is facing allied medium he is better of building a PzIV that can fight them but also has AI for similar price.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 10:56 AMTickTack

Yes, what Vipper's saying is that for TDs like the SU85 and JP, that can't chase mediums and be circle strafed, you need a decent medium tank, e.g. the PzIV, to face other mediums.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:25 AMVipper

What I am saying is that JP issue has very little do with Panther.

An okw player has little reason to go JP if his facing allied mediums, since it cost is much higher then them and PzIV J is enough.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:29 AMTickTack

Yes, the JP is much more like the SU85 than the Panther.

And I see your implication: that the SU85 is the top end of sov TD, while OKW still has panther, JT and KT to go to if their JP is at risk of being circle strafed, not to mention an excellent medium P4.

Good point btw, the panther is indeed excellent at circle-strafing the SU85 (and would also circle strafe the JP if it had to face it, ofc; e.g. if one got captured).

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:25 AMVipper

An okw player has little reason to go JP if his facing allied mediums, since it cost is much higher then them and PzIV J is good enough with a similar and with AI.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 12:41 PMJohnSmith

That's substantially wrong. A good player uses the JP4 to hard counter Allies mediums and TDs hard. It has a low target size, a high rate of fire, and more than enough penetration to take care of most allied vehicles. It is the solution against these pesky USF Jacksons. The JP4 vet bonus are fantastic. I see a lot of JP4s in 2on2+ games, more than OKW P4s, even more JP4s in narrow and long maps.

Is your solution would be to buff other allies or axis vehicles? Is that how I read it? Or why did you bring that subject up?

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:36 AMVipper

Point has very little do with Panther vs Su-85 and more to do with mediums.

Yes, SU-85 is closer to JP, a comparison with stug G would even closer in that case Stug is simple more cost efficient than JP vs mediums but that is rather irrelevant to the current debate. It has been argued that JP is not used because Panther is good vs mediums which simply is not the case.

On the other hand if you want to compare the SU-85 and JP the Su-85 is cheaper, with significantly lower XP value, with better mobility, having the same pop while it superior vs heavily armored target with its superior penetration. JP simply has superior frontal armor which is not that important for 60 range unit.

But If you generally want to debate TDs I would suggest you start a thread about them since this is general discussion feeback thread .

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 12:41 PMJohnSmith

You are substantially wrong. A good player uses the JP4 to hard counter Allies mediums and TDs hard. It has a low target size, a high rate of fire, and more than enough penetration to take care of most allied vehicles. It is the solution against these pesky USF Jacksons. The JP4 vet bonus are fantastic. I see a lot of JP4s in 2on2+ games, more than OKW P4s, even more JP4s in narrow and long maps.

Is your solution would be to buff other allies or axis vehicles? Is that how I read it? Or why did you bring that subject up?

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 16:16 PMEsxile

The more you player vs high level player to more you see jpz4.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:13 AMVipper

That is no very accurate description:
A) JP was moved from T1 to T4 without nay discount and has received several nerfs since then

B)OKW had 6.3 reload not 9 but it also used to have 0.65 moving accuracy an used to gain range with vet.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 19:29 PMelchino7

I mean it's hard to gauge a discount or proper values when the faction started receiving full 100% resources.

A) The old 400mp/135f could be converted at (±70% f gain) to cost the equivalent of 400mp/192f.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 19:29 PMelchino7

B) Reload was around 6.3 but total RoF was at 7.5. Same as before, some better values and vet but the PV fuel cost was 250f

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 19:29 PMelchino7

In regards to OKW vehicles, i think if Panzer authorization still requires to be bought after the OKW flak is destroyed i don't see what's the issue in moving the JPIV behind the first part of the truck.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 19:54 PMVipper

But had 120 fuel less tech cost.


And has received several nerf since then. The old JP was a beast once vetted.

And my point is different. JP not being used has very little to do with Panther's performance vs mediums. There is little reason to built one if to counter mediums.


That would be an improvement but I doubt it would enough. I would rather see the unit balanced as 100-110 FU unit.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 20:29 PMelchino7

1- Different numbers (i guess you are counting flak + PA) cause the truck were free and same as before, fuel tech cost can't directly translate 1:1 and unlocking tech gave free bonuses (healing, resource conversion/mechanics, truck gun).
What i'm saying is you can't translate old performance OKW using their direct values.

2- Old JPIV was broken and limited only by the resources you could get. The unit is still beast once vetted, it's that it's suited towards defensive bonuses mostly. Something which is less desirable in high count player games where unit volumes might make it irrelevant.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 20:29 PMelchino7

3: True. It might not be enough.

4: But i think it would strip the units from it's uniqueness if it has to be brought down to a 100/110f similar to the Stug. Penwise is already the same so in order to retain its 60 range it would probable have to had their vet 2 replace and lose the size/armor advantage. Rof would go down as well.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 02:10 AMStug life

the unit has 0 pen buff and the reload is very similar to the su 85,

3 For first shot fired out of camouflage:
+50% damage.
+50% accuracy.
+50% penetration.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 14:48 PMelchino7

He is implying the boost you suggest is too strong.

Increasing the pen/accuracy more is fine, not dmg. Specially when cautious movement defensive perks have never been fixed.