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[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

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10 Jan 2021, 21:12 PM
#761
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Ele, if u think the damage might be op then just switch to reload , on the current state it does nothing for both jp4 and puppchen
10 Jan 2021, 22:17 PM
#762
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Veterancy adjustments are long overdue.

I disagree on cautious movement been bad for the sole reason it provides initiative on engagement at no cost. For a vet 1 ability is not bad.

Cloak generally is not bad even without first strike bonus, the reason "cautious movement" is circumstantial is because it bugs out and many unit does not fire and because it make vehicles with bad mobility have even worse mobility.


RW is indeed cumbersome to use but not bad for what it does.

How many top player have you seen using cloak raketen at vet 1? because most streams I have seen it was not being used that much. Extra micro was imply not worth it it seems.

I think it could have like 5%/10% movement speed but i suspect it is in the current state to disuade the whole keeping 2x AT gun in the front at a risky position, shoot and then retreat away.

One can "keep 2x AT gun in the front at a risky position, shoot and then retreat away" with current implementation also...
10 Jan 2021, 22:31 PM
#763
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:17 PMVipper
One can "keep 2x AT gun in the front at a risky position, shoot and then retreat away" with current implementation also...


Which is why i said they probable didn't gave it minimal speed.
10 Jan 2021, 22:35 PM
#764
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Which is why i said they probable didn't gave it minimal speed.

One can keep RW at front a risky potion in the current implementation, one can not move them there but one can keep them there if they are in the position.

Point here is RW ability is not being used.

There are ways to fix it or it could simply be changed with some thing that would be useful even when in garrison.
11 Jan 2021, 03:23 AM
#765
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956



Veterancy adjustments are long overdue.

I disagree on cautious movement been bad for the sole reason it provides initiative on engagement at no cost. For a vet 1 ability is not bad.

RW is indeed cumbersome to use but not bad for what it does. I think it could have like 5%/10% movement speed but i suspect it is in the current state to disuade the whole keeping 2x AT gun in the front at a risky position, shoot and then retreat away.


Raketen camo.....hmmm. My opponents never see it coming (pun intended :lol:) but OTOH their usage is a bit gimmicky. Regarding slow movement speed at vet I/III. Not something -I- want to be on the receiving end of but maybe someone can make it balanced. Somehow. 20% speed from AT gun ambush is a slow crawl but 5-10% would be inching along and very likely to be still out of position when it's needed.

Rest of the post is a general thoughts thing, not aimed at you specifically.

.

I did some thinking about the RW veterancy and if it can be changed. A surprisingly daunting task. Ended up narrowing ideas down to camo itself as other AT gun vet values didn't really help much.

Honestly, the best I came up with at this point in time are below:
  • Reduced received accuracy/damage to give the gun a bit more survivability and reward keeping it alive.
  • Increased range. I think the old rak had this somewhere in the table but that was on top of a range 50 gun. Prob not popular as it makes the gun range profile inconsistent outside of stolen AT guns.
  • Vet III: +25% reload speed as part of the first strike bonus. Copied from the Soviet AT gun ambush. Should incentivise use of camo and ppl will be reversing away in most situations anyway. Guaranteed penetration is impressive but if the AT gun ambush were copied - few allied vehicles have much more armor than 225*1.20=281.25 pen at far. I have a feeling it still won't be enough esp with the lack of AT gun ambush being used by Soviet players.


Ideas I junked at the initial stage in spoiler.
11 Jan 2021, 11:26 AM
#766
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



...

ATG do not need first strike bonuses from that start. Simply sight bonuses and rotation bonuses are good enough since they can help prepare better an "ambush".

The RW vet bonuses need be looked at because vet 1 is simply not used, vet 3 although decent provides nothing to RW in garrison vet 4 is rather poor and vet 5 is simply not good enough and too late. That make only vet 2 bonus decent.


vet 1 Unlocks the "Camouflage" ability.

vet 2 +25% reload speed.
vet 2 +25% penetration.

vet 3 For first shot, fired out of camouflage:
+100000 penetration.
+25% damage.

vet 4 +15% maximum speed.

vet 5 +10% reload speed.
11 Jan 2021, 11:42 AM
#767
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 11:26 AMVipper

ATG do not need first strike bonuses from that start. Simply sight bonuses and rotation bonuses are good enough since they can help prepare better an "ambush".

The RW vet bonuses need be looked at because vet 1 is simply not used




That is wrong, in 2on2s, it is used regularly by my fixed team member, or even random OKW team member as good as all the time. It is a fantastic ability which is often seen in ranked games. Perhaps it is less popular in your 4on4 games, but it is not a reason to conclude that "it is not simply not used".

RW cloak was no fun when it was unvetted. Keep it vetted, as it promotes good play.
11 Jan 2021, 16:51 PM
#768
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 11:26 AMVipper

ATG do not need first strike bonuses from that start. Simply sight bonuses and rotation bonuses are good enough since they can help prepare better an "ambush".

The RW vet bonuses need be looked at because vet 1 is simply not used, vet 3 although decent provides nothing to RW in garrison vet 4 is rather poor and vet 5 is simply not good enough and too late. That make only vet 2 bonus decent.........


I did in the above a pretty exhaustive walkthrough of likely changes that weren't hard to implement. Reload speed being moved earlier would certainly help and something else replaces the vet V bonus. 10% is pretty minor that said. Sight for ambushes maybe would be good, but I'm not sure it'd make much of a difference in actual combat scenarios. I didn't and don't have any conclusive answers, the gun is hard to balance.

RW in garrison is considered to be 'unfixable' so one might as well ignore it, outside of some gimmicky places like Red Ball house left - to threaten armor pushing the MG that's often placed on the left VP. I would love to have raks in trenches being an absolute nuisance and shrugging off rocket arty but it's not practical as long as the target priority is bugged.

I'll admit to often just ignoring the camo as it automatically runs into the problem of the gun being left behind in the heat of the moment. Esp irritating for a tank just 5-10 out of range.
11 Jan 2021, 20:12 PM
#769
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't rak vet 1 originally camo in cover but was changed due to being buggy?
If nobody is using the current implementation ANYWAYS couldn't we strike a compromise with the return of that?
At worst we have what we have now where people are not camoing their raks, at best we might see some cheeky positioning and actual ambushes. Plus gets rid of the dubious "invisible in the middle of a field but will retreat if you get too close" shit we thankfully ditched with snipers.
11 Jan 2021, 20:43 PM
#770
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't rak vet 1 originally camo in cover but was changed due to being buggy?
If nobody is using the current implementation ANYWAYS couldn't we strike a compromise with the return of that?
At worst we have what we have now where people are not camoing their raks, at best we might see some cheeky positioning and actual ambushes. Plus gets rid of the dubious "invisible in the middle of a field but will retreat if you get too close" shit we thankfully ditched with snipers.

On release it would camo in cover at vet 1.

Then RW had camo from vet 0 and could move at 0.40% speed (about double than zis), vet 1 was further speed boost.
11 Jan 2021, 20:56 PM
#771
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Can Tank Traps receive the Wire treatment? So many lost engineers...
11 Jan 2021, 21:01 PM
#772
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

Cloaked armies of RW after an OKW player lost their medium and just slowly crawl into an ambush position at Vet 0 never needs to return, It rewarded failure. The vet 1 requirement has been in place long enough that if you don't know to activate it, that's really on the player. Although with recent changes to AT guns gaining prioritize on entering the battlefield perhaps the cloak ability could be default to on when unlocked.
12 Jan 2021, 15:26 PM
#773
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Cloaked armies of RW after an OKW player lost their medium and just slowly crawl into an ambush position at Vet 0 never needs to return, It rewarded failure. The vet 1 requirement has been in place long enough that if you don't know to activate it, that's really on the player. Although with recent changes to AT guns gaining prioritize on entering the battlefield perhaps the cloak ability could be default to on when unlocked.
mhh the problem is really the stationary part it's difficult to actually do minor changes to position, a 80-90% speed debuff similar to the soviet cloak would solve the issue and still make it almost impossible to move with them, and really it's not that strong on the pupchen , the cloack is more like a need to make sure it does not get decrewed fast (i mean the gunner gets killed so it does not shoot) as it lack the gun shield and range
12 Jan 2021, 16:44 PM
#774
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83

I think the ZIS speed debuff would be a good compromise. It would add some convenience, fix awkward interaction while not providing enough mobility to allow for cheese. Win win.
12 Jan 2021, 16:56 PM
#775
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

even slower too, just don't debuff the rotation too
12 Jan 2021, 17:46 PM
#776
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

the cloack is more like a need to make sure it does not get decrewed fast

That's what the ability to retreat is for...

If we need to give the Rak this gimmick just so it can be survivable, it's time to scrap this absurd unit entirely and give OKW a normal AT gun. The Rak is still cheesy right now in it's current implementation, that needs to be addressed too if people want to make the easiest to use AT gun in the game even easier

Edit: and before I have to clarify this to someone, easiest to use does not mean best. It means easiest to use. There are better AT guns but they all require better micro
12 Jan 2021, 17:47 PM
#777
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


That's what the ability to retreat is for...

And 5th man.
And increased range.
12 Jan 2021, 17:49 PM
#778
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2021, 17:47 PMKatitof

And 5th man.
And increased range.

Other AT guns have more men and they all have more range, so I don't see what that has to do with my point
12 Jan 2021, 17:49 PM
#779
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

That was more of an addition to what Stug said.
12 Jan 2021, 18:05 PM
#780
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2021, 17:49 PMKatitof
That was more of an addition to what Stug said.

Yeah took me a second but I follow you
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