[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

I'm in full agreement with Whiteflash here. CoH2 would be FAR more successful if some of the very rough edges were sanded down. This isnt going to hurt the game's "Flavour".

An asymmetrical game will never reach E-sport status, nor does it have to. E-sport is for losers. If you want a good playerbase you need to optimize the game and provide enough content with continuous updates. I mean, we've reached a point where devs need to specifically mention that the upcoming updates are free (Civ 6 as an example).
This patch as a whole is meh. It's a good direction with a few misses IMHO but generally updating the game that is this old and runs poorly is awesome.

Which rough edges would that be?

An asymmetrical game will never reach E-sport status, nor does it have to.

Starcraft
Warcraft 3
Age of Empires 2

That being said, if it becomes one, so be it.
But don't try to make it into one, otherwise you'll end up with DoW3.

Im not saying "make an esport", SC2 was an esport with a load of other modes and ways to play, COH could do that all day. Relic can do it all 100%.

I adhere with the concept of letting the e-sport scene grow organically and not forcing it out.

The support the game needs for that to improve is in ways to implement better modding tools, easier/faster map rotations and observer/replay system, things that the broad playerbase can benefit from as well.

An asymmetrical game will never reach E-sport status...

That's just talking through ignorance.

RTS: WC3, SC2 and AOE2 are all the "alive" RTS games with a proper scene.

FPS: CS:GO, R6 and Valorant all play based in attack vs defend mode. I'm not sure how it's the CoD scene (Search n destroy + Domination (?)) and OW mixes both "King of the Hill (symmetrical) and Push the payload (Assymetrical).

Harder to describe other genres as MOBA/Fighting games as "assymetrical". And if you mean RNG then:

WC3/AOE2 both have plenty of it.

Shooters is practically 0, outside of King of the hill free for all type of gamees.

MOBA has them in terms of crits and dmg range.

There are circuits for card games (epitome of RNG).

Fighting games 0.

Sports games, small amount.

Not a fan of v4.

7men cons needs a nerf for sure. Ost struggle with ostt and vsl nerf.

The smoke mortar buff makes ost static plays even harder.

early Re ukf makes their UC and AEC too strong especially against ost. And even okw. As faust is already late

6 man pak howie, wow..

Seems another overall buff to allies. Ticks!

What? What are you reading? UC got a fuel cost, pak howie is just... less lethal period. Cons STILL lost their 10%accuracy at vet 3.

Faust doesnt mean anything to UC and Bren for reasonable play, it doesnt have the range to hit the UC/AEC has trash AI.

Static play is the worst.

Uc got a slightest fuel cost, but with free repairs now, earlier upgrade. It seems a bad idea for early re, a buff since re trade well against grens.

Pak howie needed a nerf, why increase back to 6 man, basically we back at sov mortar durability for usf, very hard to counter all these long range units as ost, super long range for Pak howie

Which brings to ost, do I like static plays, imo it's nice to have flex play style. But with mortar smoke,it clearly disadvantage the already weak ost static play style the most.

Without ostt and vsl, yet cons still build sandbags, still have fast vet, they are a beast late games in holding out vp. Yet grens get nothing but nerf

Grens didnt get touched, right? They got a bugf with formation change?

i think slowing down the sniper shots would be better than just reducing its sight. reducing its sight would make only ukf sniper hard to coutnersnipe

I think the subject matter is part of what makes CoH2 interesting but also part of what makes it unsuited for a big e-sports title as those mentioned above. Fantastical settings that play on well established tropes are much more "digestible" than the worst war in History.

All mobile anti-tank gun squads - Pak, 6 Pounder, ZiS-3, Soviet 45mm, Raketenwerfer, 57mm - have an innate received accuracy penalty of +10%; this stacks with the type of entity that recrews the gun. Example: Conscripts recrewing an anti-tank gun go from 1.087 target size to 1.196; Panzergrenadiers recrewing would go from 0.8 to 0.88

I don't like this at all. Infantry spam often overshadows weapon team gameplay and this is a step in the wrong direction. AT guns don't have to melt even faster.

I adhere with the concept of letting the e-sport scene grow organically and not forcing it out.

The support the game needs for that to improve is in ways to implement better modding tools, easier/faster map rotations and observer/replay system, things that the broad playerbase can benefit from as well.



That's just talking through ignorance.

RTS: WC3, SC2 and AOE2 are all the "alive" RTS games with a proper scene.

FPS: CS:GO, R6 and Valorant all play based in attack vs defend mode. I'm not sure how it's the CoD scene (Search n destroy + Domination (?)) and OW mixes both "King of the Hill (symmetrical) and Push the payload (Assymetrical).

Harder to describe other genres as MOBA/Fighting games as "assymetrical". And if you mean RNG then:

WC3/AOE2 both have plenty of it.

Shooters is practically 0, outside of King of the hill free for all type of gamees.

MOBA has them in terms of crits and dmg range.

There are circuits for card games (epitome of RNG).

Fighting games 0.

Sports games, small amount.

To add up then. An asymmetrical game like COH will never reach e-sport status by watering everything down and cookie cutting the balance. Ignorance or not, I'm absolutely appalled, and cringe at the thought of e-sport mentioning, to have one of my favorite games being played for money by no-lifers would be a sad day indeed. Not to mention the cheats that would sooner or later be introduced, unless everything was client-side in COH3.

Great that the game is being kept alive, but to water down things for the sake of e-sports ready badge would be sad.

I don't like this at all. Infantry spam often overshadows weapon team gameplay and this is a step in the wrong direction. AT guns don't have to melt even faster.

i agree.
this change sounds worth a try, but in reality it is disastrous for ost.

pak is their only 60 range mobile AT.
allies have larger squad size, higher dps, sprint.
katsuya will make easier mince meat of pak.

no good, simply no good.

To add up then. An asymmetrical game like COH will never reach e-sport status by watering everything down and cookie cutting the balance. Ignorance or not, I'm absolutely appalled, and cringe at the thought of e-sport mentioning, to have one of my favorite games being played for money by no-lifers would be a sad day indeed. Not to mention the cheats that would sooner or later be introduced, unless everything was client-side in COH3.

Great that the game is being kept alive, but to water down things for the sake of e-sports ready badge would be sad.

"Watering everything down and cookie cutting the balance."

Removing MGC and other garbage is not "Watering down" the game, these things are improvements that make the game better in every scenario for people who actually want to play a game, rather than watch fireworks out of their control.

I'm failing to see why any of this would result in "cheats" suddenly appearing in CoH3, incidentally. You're fearmongering for absolutely no reason, it's absurd.

You also mean "Server-side", not "Client-side". Having the client be authoritative is how you invite cheating, please stop making blatantly false statements constantly.

To add up then. An asymmetrical game like COH will never reach e-sport status by watering everything down and cookie cutting the balance. Ignorance or not, I'm absolutely appalled, and cringe at the thought of e-sport mentioning, to have one of my favorite games being played for money by no-lifers would be a sad day indeed. Not to mention the cheats that would sooner or later be introduced, unless everything was client-side in COH3.

Great that the game is being kept alive, but to water down things for the sake of e-sports ready badge would be sad.

I also dont like it if e sports becomes the focus, it will mean watering down things. Coh as a whole has to much rng to have it be viable in a esport setting.

Shots missing or bouncing are not done in e sports, they would loose their minds, clicks per minute and 100% outcomes of intended actions is mostly the way to go. Hell i bet even retreat is not right for esports.

Now that you mention it i havent noticed or heard about any cheat in this pc game, a pc game without cheaters is rare nowadays.

Keeping the game alive is just fine by me, and i am very gratefull for it.

i agree.
this change sounds worth a try, but in reality it is disastrous for ost.

pak is their only 60 range mobile AT.
allies have larger squad size, higher dps, sprint.
katsuya will make easier mince meat of pak.

no good, simply no good.

This is a change to RA, not damage so it won't affect how much damage the pak takes from Katy's.

It's a larger nerf to Soviets, as they generally have worse RA to start. OKW takes a hit because the raketen has lower range and more likely to be hit with small arms.

I also dont like it if e sports becomes the focus, it will mean watering down things. Coh as a whole has to much rng to have it be viable in a esport setting.

Shots missing or bouncing are not done in e sports, they would loose their minds, clicks per minute and 100% outcomes of intended actions is mostly the way to go. Hell i bet even retreat is not right for esports.

Now that you mention it i havent noticed or heard about any cheat in this pc game, a pc game without cheaters is rare nowadays.

Keeping the game alive is just fine by me, and i am very gratefull for it.

There is literally no reason that Retreat mechanics would be "Not right for Esports".

Cheats are known to exist for CoH2 already. I've heard of cheats to allow vision in the Fog of war, there's no special immunity this game has to cheat development.

WINTER BALANCE PATCH PREVIEW - VERSION 4.0

Mobile Anti-Tank Guns
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As long as the original crew has its target size reduced to keep the it performance the same the change is good and it should actually be expanded to include HMG.

ATG crew do not need to become weaker vs tank mgs.


Mobile Mortar Smoke Show Spoiler
This bonuses are a step in right direction although probably not enough, the problem remain the time from ordering smoke to actually delivering it which is usually too long.

To increase mortar usage I wold suggest to further improve the performance vs cover garrison by reducing the penalties (even as vet bonus).

I would so far to suggest reducing the ATGs capabilities vs buildings since currently they more attractive option than mortars.

Brummbar and Dozer 105mm Sherman
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A good change but would rather have the gap between autofire and manual fire decreased.

Else at least add a note in UI informing player that they should use manual aim.


Bug-Fixes

Show Spoiler

Great work.
Is the 50 cal receiving the correct debuffs when suppressed?

"Watering everything down and cookie cutting the balance."

Removing MGC and other garbage is not "Watering down" the game, these things are improvements that make the game better in every scenario for people who actually want to play a game, rather than watch fireworks out of their control.

I'm failing to see why any of this would result in "cheats" suddenly appearing in CoH3, incidentally. You're fearmongering for absolutely no reason, it's absurd.

You also mean "Server-side", not "Client-side". Having the client be authoritative is how you invite cheating, please stop making blatantly false statements constantly.

Server side, yes, not client. Lapsus calami. Fireworks out of control? This whole game is pretty much not in your control. You don't direct the bullets and unit accuracy. You don't dictate which will penetrate. Only thing you do is increase the chances. Nothing else. This whole game is "position yourself to give yourself the best chance".
COH3 in e-sports mode would most definitely increase the cheats. The more popular the game, the larger number of hack software. If people decide to cheat while playing the tournament, live, in front of thousands of people and admins looking over their shoulder (CS GO)...

Except for the lapsus, which blatantly false statements am I claiming?

Server side, yes, not client. Lapsus calami. Fireworks out of control? This whole game is pretty much not in your control. You don't direct the bullets and unit accuracy. You don't dictate which will penetrate. Only thing you do is increase the chances. Nothing else. This whole game is "position yourself to give yourself the best chance".
COH3 in e-sports mode would most definitely increase the cheats. The more popular the game, the larger number of hack software. If people decide to cheat while playing the tournament, live, in front of thousands of people and admins looking over their shoulder (CS GO)...

Except for the lapsus, which blatantly false statements am I claiming?

That these suggested changes are in any way "watering the game down", or that balance is "Cookie cuttering" in any way, and that an Asymmetrical game "must" have these sorts of absurd examples of RNG to become a viable "E-sport". On top of this being some strange idea that the game improving will necessarily come with an inundation of cheating.

You're constantly fearmongering to defend the idea of absurdly impactful RNG such as MGC for some reason. Refer to Whiteflash's article. I'm not bothering to argue with you regarding the merits of accuracy and penetration.

Server side, yes, not client. Lapsus calami. Fireworks out of control? This whole game is pretty much not in your control. You don't direct the bullets and unit accuracy. You don't dictate which will penetrate. Only thing you do is increase the chances. Nothing else. This whole game is "position yourself to give yourself the best chance".
COH3 in e-sports mode would most definitely increase the cheats. The more popular the game, the larger number of hack software. If people decide to cheat while playing the tournament, live, in front of thousands of people and admins looking over their shoulder (CS GO)...

Except for the lapsus, which blatantly false statements am I claiming?

Cheats already exist for the game and this has been the case since CoH1. People had been banned for it.

The biggest advantage the genre has over it's competitors is the type of cheats and how much advantage they can provide over regular play. Compare a wallhack/aimbot vs a removal of fog of war/minimap information. The first one becomes gods while the 2nd ones they just play just above average. Specially on COH2 which is so dynamic as less about tech/macro decisions which you need to hide compared to SC2/AOE2/WC3.

If you mostly play 3v3/4v4 cheats (outside drophacks) impact is pretty much null.

I also dont like it if e sports becomes the focus, it will mean watering down things. Coh as a whole has to much rng to have it be viable in a esport setting.

Shots missing or bouncing are not done in e sports, they would loose their minds, clicks per minute and 100% outcomes of intended actions is mostly the way to go. Hell i bet even retreat is not right for esports.

People keep repeating this mantra like parrots.

WC3: Blademaster (a hero). Values might be off but the general idea is the same.
Lv1 dmg 26-48 (random). One of it's 3 basic abilities is Critical strike. 15% chance to deal 2x/3x/4x dmg depending on lv.
One of ORCs unique item is an Orb that can dispel and slow at a 30% chance.

There are other heroes which have evasion based on chance and crit as well. There are common units which makes units miss (still RNG).

Item drops are crucial, game changing and are random.


AOE2: Ballistics and Thumb ring (technologies) are a thing cause ranged units don't have 100% accuracy. Same with siege units, specially if you are in a Trebuchet war.

Players have 0 agency regarding where their resources spawn. It can be in a safe position at the back of your base or be in the front of it, just outside a small hill which the enemy can abuse the height bonus advantage.

I think this is enough offtopic for this thread so i'm gonna make a new thread so whoever wants can continue there.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/107192/rng