Panther time to fire is slow need a vet buff

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Honestly I never understood this design, why would Axis get TDs which main goal is to couter mediums, while Axis objectively already has so many tools to counter mediums, while against heavyes they have no other reliable option but panther.

I doubt there was a "design". Certain units like the M36 and Su-85 simply got overbuffed while some heavy tank where power creeped.

Panther does not need high rate of fire. You absoltuley should not be relying on just panther/s for your AT as Ost. OSt probably has the best AT in the game, you are supposed to be using all these tools (faust, shrek, pak, stug, stuka loiter, elefant, etc etc).

The main thing Ost generally lacks is high mobility units compared to other factions. This is what you are paying for with the panther, its durability and mobility, use all your other slow AT tools, then use the panther to react to threats + finish units which have taken damage from your main army.

Panther will always be too expensive and slow firing to only rely on this unit for AT, that would be playing Ost wrong!

ROF for TD hardly means anything without penetration. Firefly has a garbage ROF but its still very usefull and powerfull TD simply because of its raw penetration, its less effective against medium armor while being effective against heavy targers.

Ironically the Firefly is actually the worst of the Allied TDs in terms of penetration at 260/240/210, and most importantly it doesn't get a veterancy penetration bonus unlike the others. Its "raw penetration" is rather lacklustre (which is why it gets Tulip rockets), especially versus highly armored targets like the Tiger II or the Elefant.

As for your comparison, the Firefly vs Jagdpanzer IV, when both are vet 0 the Jagdpanzer IV actually has a faster theoretical time to kill against similar targets (Tiger with 300 armor and 1040hp vs Churchill Croc/AVRE with 290 armor and 1080hp) than the Firefly at 55s versus 66s.

Ironically the Firefly is actually the worst of the Allied TDs in terms of penetration at 260/240/210, and most importantly it doesn't get a veterancy penetration bonus unlike the others. Its "raw penetration" is rather lacklustre (which is why it gets Tulip rockets).

As for your comparison, the Firefly vs Jagdpanzer IV, when both are vet 0 the Jagdpanzer IV actually has a faster theoretical time to kill against similar targets (Tiger with 300 armor and 1080hp vs Churchill Croc/AVRE with 290 armor and 1080hp) than the Firefly at 55s versus 66s.

Is that comparison taking into account Tulips?

The comparison is also not ideal since FF overkills these target with 1200 damage, while the JP with 1120.

ROF for TD hardly means anything without penetration. Firefly has a garbage ROF but its still very usefull and powerfull TD simply because of its raw penetration, its less effective against medium armor while being effective against heavy targers.

Stug and JP4 have good ROF but very poor penetration, meaning that they are effective against medium targers, but they are slightly better then premium mediums against heavy targets. Stug is cheap counter to mediums, while JP4 is somewhat counter for allied TDs and mediums, but it hardly can be massed, so its more of a single support unit.

Point is being, when it comes to TDs axis do have problems vs heavy armor, since aside from AT walls, the only thing that can reliably fight heavy armor is panther.

Honestly I never understood this design, why would Axis get TDs which main goal is to couter mediums, while Axis objectively already has so many tools to counter mediums, while against heavyes they have no other reliable option but panther.

Not to mention that Allies can potentually get more heavy tanks and faster in general then Axis.

I did not want to write a super long post (again), that's why I left it at ROF, especially since Panther and Allied TDs will reliably penetrate their targets.

So the rest now in condensed manner: you are shortening the argumentation. Penetration is meaningless without armor values and heavily misrepresenting others.
Firefly has 15% slower ROF at vet0 than the Jackson that everyone complains about iirc. JP4 and StuG penetration is fine vs everything except heavies. They literally penetrate all nondoc armor (except Comet and Churchill) with 100% chance while having the highest ROFs for their class. Their ROF even offsets the low pen chance vs heavies partially.
The Panther is in it's place because Allied factions were not designed tp have very heavy tanks. USF can field exactly one, Soviet heavies were designed to be a real surprise for Axis, and UKF gets units with thick armor but has no real heavy tank compared to all other factions. Axis were supposed to regularly field Tigers, plus the stock Panther that comes with both heavy armor and very good HP.
Unless Allies get a Pershing, Comet or ISU or something, Panthers are 100% optional and rather are a playstyle choice than necessity. As Allies, TDs are your only vehicle based anti vehicle option. But we had this topic already many times

ROF for TD hardly means anything without penetration. Firefly has a garbage ROF but its still very usefull and powerfull TD simply because of its raw penetration, its less effective against medium armor while being effective against heavy targers.

Stug and JP4 have good ROF but very poor penetration, meaning that they are effective against medium targers, but they are slightly better then premium mediums against heavy targets. Stug is cheap counter to mediums, while JP4 is somewhat counter for allied TDs and mediums, but it hardly can be massed, so its more of a single support unit.

Point is being, when it comes to TDs axis do have problems vs heavy armor, since aside from AT walls, the only thing that can reliably fight heavy armor is panther.

Honestly I never understood this design, why would Axis get TDs which main goal is to couter mediums, while Axis objectively already has so many tools to counter mediums, while against heavyes they have no other reliable option but panther.

Not to mention that Allies can potentually get more heavy tanks and faster in general then Axis.

Yes, their penetration is lower compared to ally TDs but also take into consideration that Stugs and JP4s go against Shermans, T34s and Cromwells.

Stug/JP4 pen: 200,185,170 VS

British medium armour:
- Cromwell 160
- Comet 290
- Churchill 240
- Centaur

As you can see, Stug and JP4 can completely deny British medium armour except Comet. For Comet, Panther is more than enough and in every scenario it wins. Stug will penetrate Comet 60% of times, which can be enough with RNG in your favour but is still not enough to rely on it. Churchill is pretty much a sponge which can easily be used as veterancy gain for Panther/TDs

USF medium armour
- Sherman 160
- E8 215
- Pershing 270
- Bulldozer 200

Again, Stug and JP4 can deal with all ally armour. Against Pershing Stugs and JP4 will not penetrate most of the time. Again, Panther will easily win vs Pershing 1v1 and in typical scenarios with supporting infantry, it will force the Pershing away.

Soviet medium armour

100% Penetration against everything except KV"X", ISU152, IS2 which are all doctrinal heavy tanks. Still, Panther wins against every KV# tank and wins vs ISU152 and IS2. Only problem it can have vs ISU152 is the range, so charging it head on is not advised (same as vs Jagd and Ele).

Moreover, JP4 has 230 frontal armour but no turret so it evens out if an enemy Sherman or T34-85/76 or Cromwell is charging it. They won't penetrate most of the time and with the target size of 17, they won't really hit reliably on the move.


So, you are right that Axis have a lot to counter mediums but it's because mediums is what you will be going against most of the time.

USF only has one commander with Pershing and you can use JP4 and 2x Stug to force Pershing away. 62% is more than enough since the Pershing has 960 hp, same as Panther, so no sane person will risk having it damaged only to be repaired for a long time.

Soviets on the other hand have plenty of heavy tank commanders but all of those tanks wet themselves if going against a Panther. And all of them are slow enough for Pak40 to be more than enough in conjunction with Stug or Raketen with JP4. Combined arms. ISU152 needs a rear armour nerf but that's another problem.

Ally TDs will mostly go against 260 armour Panther or f***ton armour KT or Tiger commanders or the popular Sturmtiger commander. Also Brummbar with it's large hp/armour pool and OKW P4 with it's 230 frontal armour.

See the disparity and the need for 60 range TDs on ally side?

thanks for keeping the discussion going.

i like to chip back in and say my issues is at vet levels.

at vet0, imo they are perfectly ok and competes against each others.

that's why i hope panther vet bonuses can be brought forward, which makes it a fairer unit. add the moving acc buff at vet3, and we be good.

i have seen and play many games, a vet3 panther is rarest amongst all stock tanks, even heavy call-ins. so its rof at vet3 is hardly usable.

and axis do struggle late games, especially if allies call in their heavy armor.

not sure if it is a bug or overlooked, but the above video reminds me of using panther in game.

it takes too long to shoot, so that allies tanks are mostly retreated or fire off twice before panther return fire.

besides the vet3 rof bonus takes too long to attain for panther vis a vis allies TD.

the thing is.. everyone listen... please. the panther user didnt chase the enemy tank enough to be in range when his shell was ready to fire. so what happened was he was out of range by the time his shell was reloaded. if he chased a bit in there he would have gotten the shot off. he was just afriad of chancing his tank which he shouldnt have been scared with all the deflection power aka armor there is no issue here

If panthers role is to dive in to kill enemy TD's at high speed, it would make sense if panthers shots were more accurate, i feel that i have to rush in,stop and fire, and then move again, sort of negating the point of the tank itself.
At 490 MP 185 fuel and 18 pop, i feel it too risky to use on a regular basis, i much prefer stug's, elefant's and pak's.

if it was cheaper or had better accuracy on the move, it would be good

If panthers role is to dive in to kill enemy TD's at high speed, it would make sense if panthers shots were more accurate, i feel that i have to rush in,stop and fire, and then move again, sort of negating the point of the tank itself.
At 490 MP 185 fuel and 18 pop, i feel it too risky to use on a regular basis, i much prefer stug's, elefant's and pak's.

if it was cheaper or had better accuracy on the move, it would be good

Agreed. Shouldn't be cheaper though, Panther spam used to be even more annoying.

I think actually, panther needs only some more Penetration so it could counter heavy armour more effectively, right now with the cost of the panther and its performance vs heavies, its just not efficient enough like how TD's are to other tanks.

Panther has the pen against allies med, likewise allies 60Td has the pen over axis stock tanks, inclusive panther.

Except, panther has poor rof and accruacy whereas allies 60Td are much more accurate and deadly.

when panther is out, allies med are at or close to vet2, with their insane gun bonus.

See where my stats based approach is leading you to?

The only buff i call is the moving accuracy at vet3, generally agree that Panther needs some accruacy bonus.

The rest is moving all or half of panther vet3 gun bonus down to vet2, and the armor down to vet1.

hardly trolling. reporting you guys for toxic behavor and not sticking to improving the issues.

Panther has poor rof and acc compared to what meds? Td's?

When compared to meds it dominates them. It has better acc range and simaler rof at vet 0 while being much much tougher and as fast or faster.

Compared to td's its got worse acc pen and rof and range. But its has more armour more hp and vs 2/3 is more mobile/faster, it has actual ai capability. Vs su85 it has a turret. Its not all bad.

Dont downplay stats to suit your view. The panther is not a td nor is it a medium or a heavy. Its a mix of those 3 with the more upsides and few downsides of those.

You cant have such a tough fast and high pen tank get better roff or moving acc or both buffed while giving nothing in return.

100% Penetration against everything except KV"X", ISU152, IS2 which are all doctrinal heavy tanks. Still, Panther wins against every KV# tank and wins vs ISU152 and IS2.

Just a correction, the IS2 usually comes out on top 1v1 with a panther.

Also in my experience stugs do not usually "force away" pershings, the equivalent would be an M10 forcing away a panther.


I disagree with OP wanting a buff to panther RoF since I think it's fine.
But honestly stugs specifically are in a weird position imo. I find that you really only ever get them if you are far behind your opponent in armor, sort of like the Su76.
They aren't underpowered persay but they fill a weird niche between the panzer 4 and panther without anything positive that they exclusively can do unlike the JP4(60 range).

. JP4 and StuG penetration is fine vs everything except heavies. They literally penetrate all nondoc armor (except Comet and Churchill) with 100% chance while having the highest ROFs for their class.

And I did say that, but most ppl who replyed probably missed it out. I said that in terms of perfomance vs mediums, Stug and JP4 are by far the best, considering all other TDs also do have 100% of penetration vs Axis mediums.
Point is being, you dont need so much options to fight mediums, you already have plenty on them.

Their ROF even offsets the low pen chance vs heavies partially.

It offsets, but its not a reliable offset. As allies if you see heavy tanks, you can freely get firefly\Jackson\SU85 and be sure that it will do its biting most of the time. Stug and JP4 can sometimes do great and sometimes they can do piss poor. Considering that few additional hits can change everything, I would have trade this ROF for penetration at any moment.

Unless Allies get a Pershing, Comet or ISU or something, Panthers are 100% optional and rather are a playstyle choice than necessity. As Allies, TDs are your only vehicle based anti vehicle option. But we had this topic already many times

So pretty much if they are playing with anything but the stuff they play in 99% of the situations. Except for USF. But USF in general hardly need heavy tank.

If panthers role is to dive in to kill enemy TD's at high speed, it would make sense if panthers shots were more accurate, i feel that i have to rush in,stop and fire, and then move again, sort of negating the point of the tank itself.
At 490 MP 185 fuel and 18 pop, i feel it too risky to use on a regular basis, i much prefer stug's, elefant's and pak's.

if it was cheaper or had better accuracy on the move, it would be good

Combat blitz makes panther much more accurate on the move.

Impossible, I recheck the stat and I see this
Blitz:
Speed +20%
Received acc -25%
Accuracy +20%

Why I remember Blitz make acc much more worse.
So we have
Stationary acc 100%
Moving acc 50%
Stationary while Blitz 120%
Moving while Blitz 60%

Impossible, I recheck the stat and I see this
Blitz:
Speed +20%
Received acc -25%
Accuracy +20%

Why I remember Blitz make acc much more worse.
So we have
Stationary acc 100%
Moving acc 50%
Stationary while Blitz 120%
Moving while Blitz 60%

You might be thinking of "combat blitz" the OKW version of blitz. The first stats you posted are the ones for OST "blitzkrieg" I believe. The old version of "combat blitz" that was nerfed years ago used to give a +100% accuracy boost when activated. It has since been nerfed to give a slight reload buff among other buffs I cannot recall off the top of my head.

Name: "Combat Blitz".Duration: 10 Seconds Cost: 30 Munitions
for heavies (excluding PzIV and doctrinal Ostwind)

+20% accuracy.
-25% received accuracy.
+20% speed.
+25% rate of fire.
Bonuses,except rate of fire, working only on the move.


Name: "Blitzkrieg Tactics" Duration: 15 Seconds Cost: 30 Munitions

-25% received accuracy.
+15% speed.
+30% ac/de-celeration.
Bonuses working only on the move.

And I did say that, but most ppl who replyed probably missed it out. I said that in terms of perfomance vs mediums, Stug and JP4 are by far the best, considering all other TDs also do have 100% of penetration vs Axis mediums.
Point is being, you dont need so much options to fight mediums, you already have plenty on them.


It offsets, but its not a reliable offset. As allies if you see heavy tanks, you can freely get firefly\Jackson\SU85 and be sure that it will do its biting most of the time. Stug and JP4 can sometimes do great and sometimes they can do piss poor. Considering that few additional hits can change everything, I would have trade this ROF for penetration at any moment.



So pretty much if they are playing with anything but the stuff they play in 99% of the situations. Except for USF. But USF in general hardly need heavy tank.

I think we're getting slightly offtopic here, so I'll make it short.

I'm not going to argue about the RNG chance. Relying on StuGs is inherently more RNG based than on Panthers or than Allies relying on their TDs, I agree on that. Just statistically speaking, you can buy one and a half StuGs for the price of an Allied TD. And (again, just statistical calculation, bad RNG might give you nothing at all and good RNG delete the Allied heavy) the chance of them not penetrating on their first shot against a 300 armor target is about 25%, which is similar to an SU85 shooting at a Tiger. There are other trade offs like range, total health pool, vet, ROF and potentially even armor. From what I can tell without in-depth analysis, the variation of outcomes will probably not be THAT big.
StuG spam (3 StuGs) do similarly well against Allied heavies as Allied TD spam (usually two) does against Axis heavies, all the while costing similarly in terms of fuel. People complain about the StuG because they expect their 90 fuel unit to carry the same weight as an Allied TD that costs 50% more. And obviously it cannot. Now the JP4 is a bit of a different unit and things don't add up as evenly here.

So coming back to the Panther: The Panther performs decently against all Allied heavies. I can see that the ROF starts off a bit slow, but at least in my game experience this has not been a huge issue so far. Late game it improves to about Jackson level regarding ROF, and the Jackson is a unit that people complain about regularly. It is hard to say if the Panther could use a small +5% somewhere or not, but so far I'd say at least Ostheer's options against heavies are very very plentiful. Counter heavy, PaKs, Panther and potential StuG spam. Each strat has its own advantages and disadvantages, but even the RNG based ones work reliably (maybe not in a singular engagement, but over the course of the whole game).

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Allies have a clear advantage when it comes to TDs. Now if ones combines that with fact that they have an advantage in infatry too (accept some doctrinal solution) one will see why allies play infatry/TDs combo (or some Super heavy) and why axis play with artillery.