durability of half-tracks

Just consistency

There are four different versions of the 88mm all with different penetration and damage values. Three different versions of the 17 pounder. Sherman tanks have any of four different health values despite all being based on the same chassis. Despite being a game based on history, units are treated as gameplay objects and not as historical objects. Vehicles that might appear the same (IRL) can have similar characteristics in general but are likely to have different stats for diversity and gameplay reasons.

There are four different versions of the 88mm all with different penetration and damage values. Three different versions of the 17 pounder. Sherman tanks have any of four different health values despite all being based on the same chassis. Despite being a game based on history, units are treated as gameplay objects and not as historical objects. Vehicles that might appear the same (IRL) can have similar characteristics in general but are likely to have different stats for diversity and gameplay reasons.

All true and I agree with all. Still I'd either tiny tiny nerf the clowncar's armour or add a bit more armour to flametruck. Too much risk to use it for most players imo.

thank you all for the good explanation about the differences in half-track durability.

and sander93, when you said there are 3 versions of 17 pounder, i recall 17 pounder emplacement and the firefly, which was the 3rd?

The Comet also has a 17 pounder.

I'd say not really that difficult. You have to retreat it more often before it has as much impact as a clowncar with a flame CE. IMO it should be much better than a clowncar - right now it is not that significantly better.

Its either in a support role where it's armour doesn't matter or it's a flamer where at its timing focus fire absolutely should give it a bit of down time. The clown car issue is one of its own and irrelevant in this discussion, but since it's being compared, the 251 does more than the Scout Car. It can heal, it can reinforce, it can lay mines and it can be upgraded into the scourge of cover like nothing else in that timing all by itself. That's without taking into doctrines where it can also get escape smoke or even turn invisible and detect infantry (while still being able to reinforce and heal). It's got enough going on that it doesn't need to be bulletproof as well

Its either in a support role where it's armour doesn't matter or it's a flamer where at its timing focus fire absolutely should give it a bit of down time. The clown car issue is one of its own and irrelevant in this discussion, but since it's being compared, the 251 does more than the Scout Car. It can heal, it can reinforce, it can lay mines and it can be upgraded into the scourge of cover like nothing else in that timing all by itself. That's without taking into doctrines where it can also get escape smoke or even turn invisible and detect infantry (while still being able to reinforce and heal). It's got enough going on that it doesn't need to be bulletproof as well

Yes all true yet it is axis lights that are non existent imo and just scale terribly. Since it is only ai specialist and is absolutely hard countered by lights from allies it could be just immune to small arms. Allies lights can usually deal with both infantry and armour. I believe that a flame halftrack should be just more of a counter to infantry without hand held at. An allied player should be forced to buy/call in some hand held at units, lure it into mine, build an AT gun. Right now it can be fend off and forced to repair by just regular infantry. All abilities it has are just sort of let's buff the unit but just let's make sure it isn't lethal. Aec, which has similar timing, is so much more deadly and scales so much better. Same for most other allies light vehicles. They just can't be damaged by small arms unless these are sort of 0 tier very cheap ultra lights such as jeep (which I feel is similarly resilient and costs no fuel, has crew etc)

Honestly, I can not think of a time where small arms was used to take down the 251 from full health, or even after a snare. It is usually multiple snares and/or at guns. Buffing its armor or nerfing its counterparts probably would not change much.

I killed a flame HT which had been hit by 1 AT nade with Shock Troops attacking from the rear. To be fair that was mostly thanks to wonky pathing making it harder for the flame HT to escape.

Yes all true yet it is axis lights that are non existent imo and just scale terribly. Since it is only ai specialist and is absolutely hard countered by lights from allies it could be just immune to small arms. Allies lights can usually deal with both infantry and armour. I believe that a flame halftrack should be just more of a counter to infantry without hand held at. An allied player should be forced to buy/call in some hand held at units, lure it into mine, build an AT gun. Right now it can be fend off and forced to repair by just regular infantry. All abilities it has are just sort of let's buff the unit but just let's make sure it isn't lethal. Aec, which has similar timing, is so much more deadly and scales so much better. Same for most other allies light vehicles. They just can't be damaged by small arms unless these are sort of 0 tier very cheap ultra lights such as jeep (which I feel is similarly resilient and costs no fuel, has crew etc)

The allied lights as other pointed out. Dont get almost an all in one light. The 251 does more and can go clowncar 2000 and still lay mines and have doctrinal get out off jail smoke. It will be far more relevant then the sov clow car ever will, it just arrives later but earlier then the m5 but is much more ussefull and more powerfull.

You cant have it all. The 251 is fine as is.

The allied lights as other pointed out. Dont get almost an all in one light. The 251 does more and can go clowncar 2000 and still lay mines and have doctrinal get out off jail smoke. It will be far more relevant then the sov clow car ever will, it just arrives later but earlier then the m5 but is much more ussefull and more powerfull.

You cant have it all. The 251 is fine as is.

I don't think so. It is allies lights that can go crazy all around dealing with both infantry AND armoured vehicles. Flak truck usually makes U retreat, does not really snipe models. It is also quite expensive. Rarely a good investment for most players.

You can't have it all. Well, did U mean t70, Valentine, AEC? What I mean is a slight armour buff so that allies need to counter it with some proper AT instead having a possibility to add damage from small arms which changesg number of AT shots required

I don't think so. It is allies lights that can go crazy all around dealing with both infantry AND armoured vehicles. Flak truck usually makes U retreat, does not really snipe models. It is also quite expensive. Rarely a good investment for most players.

You can't have it all. Well, did U mean t70, Valentine, AEC? What I mean is a slight armour buff so that allies need to counter it with some proper AT instead having a possibility to add damage from small arms which changesg number of AT shots required

I agree on the flacktrack. But it does have smoke to help it, if it gets off a burst its a definate retreat or big damage to inf. Its just hard to use.

Do the t70 aec and stuart lay mines? Do they reinforce? Do they heal? Do they arrive when only inf and jeeps and maybe 1 atgun are fielded? When at nades are not teched or vet not reached?
The 251 is a halftrack not a light tank. The m5 comes out when there is proper at and moments before stugs and p4's are fielded. It faces bigger threats the moment it arrives because of tech and timing. Hence small arms dont pen it.

The m3 gets wrecked by sturms up close. Faster then allied inf will wreck a 251. For its timing its armour and hp are just fine.
Taking out a full or near full health 251 with just small arms takes quite some time. If you want to take it out quick you already do need proper at or hh at plus snare or mines. Just small arms isent enough for a quick kill. Unless you really blob it with inf. But then the 251 probably is overextended.

Do the t70 aec and stuart lay mines? Do they reinforce? Do they heal? Do they arrive when only inf and jeeps and maybe 1 atgun are fielded? When at nades are not teched or vet not reached?

But they have plenty of other useful functions. t70 can cap, increase sight range and above all just keeps bleeding infantry like crazy, even until lategame. AEC can help deal with even mediums and again can deal with basically all halftracks and infantry.

The 251 is a halftrack not a light tank. The m5 comes out when there is proper at and moments before stugs and p4's are fielded. It faces bigger threats the moment it arrives because of tech and timing. Hence small arms dont pen it.

It is not a light tank but it should make the opponent invest in some AT solution. And it should not be possible to let small arms deal enough damage to reduce the number of AT/ptrs/bazooka/piat shots required to kill it.

The m3 gets wrecked by sturms up close. Faster then allied inf will wreck a 251. For its timing its armour and hp are just fine.

Well, the sturms dealing damage and volks not doing it at all is a bit meh and not very logical. It was invented to somehow offset lack of snares from okw. A bad idea. Both halftracks should imo have similar reaction to small arms. Either all small arms dmg them to some extend or not. I would rather not allow that to happen. Lights in coh2 have short lifespan and it could prolong it a bit.

Taking out a full or near full health 251 with just small arms takes quite some time. If you want to take it out quick you already do need proper at or hh at plus snare or mines. Just small arms isent enough for a quick kill. Unless you really blob it with inf. But then the 251 probably is overextended.

Yeah, true. What I wrote above would be my opinion on the subject. Just for the sake of game understanding and new players I would just make it more consistent. Half trucks should react in a similar way to small arms.

I killed a flame HT which had been hit by 1 AT nade with Shock Troops attacking from the rear. To be fair that was mostly thanks to wonky pathing making it harder for the flame HT to escape.

SmGs at close range do seem to do allot of damage to light vehicles.

SmGs at close range do seem to do allot of damage to light vehicles.

Mainly because of ROF. That's why Echelons had a "nerf" where their ROF/dmg was decreased but accuracy increased which meant better-ish vs infantry but worse vs Kubels (since every shot penetrated and hit, having better accuracy means s*** vs vehicles), and their overall DPS remained the same, sort of. So SMGs with good dmg and excellent ROF can take down light vehicles like front of AA HT or 2XX or Scout car, werfer, etc.

And considering the "T70 can bleed infantry in late" is... well... not completely true. It can do so in 1v1s where the forces are spread thin so it can attack flanks but in teamgames it gets destroyed quite quickly if not super careful (more people, more mines, AT, snares... on *slightly* larger maps). T70 cap function is not bad, still it's seldom used and only on flanks where it can safely cap and preferably get out if danger comes.

You do invest in AT solution in form of snares. Bazookas and piats are for mediums mostly. PTSRs are the best for light vehicles due to the possibility to come soon and they are OK vs infantry as well. 251 won't go down easily by small arms fire unless you blob. And if the 251 has a flame HT, then you are pretty happy if they blob infantry. Hell, Flame HT took out my captain squad in 3 seconds that it took them to get out of the building, de-clump and retreat. Poof, all 5 models gone.

Combine all that with the fact that 251 utility solutions are great, it doesn't need armor buff.

But they have plenty of other useful functions. t70 can cap, increase sight range and above all just keeps bleeding infantry like crazy, even until lategame. AEC can help deal with even mediums and again can deal with basically all halftracks and infantry.

It is not a light tank but it should make the opponent invest in some AT solution. And it should not be possible to let small arms deal enough damage to reduce the number of AT/ptrs/bazooka/piat shots required to kill it.

Well, the sturms dealing damage and volks not doing it at all is a bit meh and not very logical. It was invented to somehow offset lack of snares from okw. A bad idea. Both halftracks should imo have similar reaction to small arms. Either all small arms dmg them to some extend or not. I would rather not allow that to happen. Lights in coh2 have short lifespan and it could prolong it a bit.

Yeah, true. What I wrote above would be my opinion on the subject. Just for the sake of game understanding and new players I would just make it more consistent. Half trucks should react in a similar way to small arms.

T70 aec stuarts are all a tier higher in terms of cost/timing and preformance. That they can deal with halftracks is intended. However its not like they 2 shot halftracks as atguns and bigger tanks do.


Okay i get that halftracks should be somewhat simaler.
The 251 just comes to early, and the flametrack is to dangerous for it to be imune to small arms fire. Not even counting the mines doctrinal smoke etc.

T70 aec stuarts are all a tier higher in terms of cost/timing and preformance. That they can deal with halftracks is intended. However its not like they 2 shot halftracks as atguns and bigger tanks do.

True. Yet they have many abilities and that is why I mentioned them - as an argument showing that halftrack abilities are not making this unit that special. But there are more, even less balanced abilities, on many allied (especially UKF) potent units, such as phosphorous smoke non doc, grenades from the turret of a tank destroying AT guns, crews, etc.

Okay i get that halftracks should be somewhat simaler.
The 251 just comes to early, and the flametrack is to dangerous for it to be imune to small arms fire. Not even counting the mines doctrinal smoke etc.

Well, I don't think so. A player should basically shoot it the exact number of AT shots that the unit was balanced around. Small arms shouldn't add their damage imo (unless, of course, we allow that for allied half trucks, too) I would rather halftracks were more sturdy to promote light vehicle play.

Another argument for it would be the fact that, for example, Soviets have ptrs which are very effective against them anyway (Guards get their ptrs for free!). Also allied infantry (UKF, USF) can equip bazookas, piats on any squad so that is also not a problem to just equip them with it.

It would even out the infantry engagements a bit, too. Allies would have to equip some units with hand held ATs losing some of their AI capacity - an intended and important game design tradeoff. Now they can safely just ignore the need to purchase hand held AT or snares at that stage of the game. It leads to infantry engagements imbalance. Of course these are small details but they add up.

Finally, there are mgs which deal with halftrucks pretty well and they probably should.

T70 aec stuarts are all a tier higher in terms of cost/timing and preformance.

The 251 just comes to early, and the flametrack is to dangerous for it to be imune to small arms fire.

AEC comes literally 5 fuel later than than 222 scoutcar / halftrack.

However its not like they 2 shot halftracks as atguns and bigger tanks do.

3 Shots from the AEC isn't that bad either ( you can also just need 2 Shots when you have some RNG in your favor with the MG / damaged it a tiny bit with section rifles )

Why not make the 251 upgradeable for like 40 muni into a open-top carrier where you cant reinforce anymore..but can sit in with two squads and better armor...so ost get a little more pushing and mobile power?

When u thing about it: on axis side almost every light vehicle lose to something like the upgraded dodge truck or vickers UC. even a OKW command 221 which need an invest from around 60 fuel

True. Yet they have many abilities and that is why I mentioned them - as an argument showing that halftrack abilities are not making this unit that special. But there are more, even less balanced abilities, on many allied (especially UKF) potent units, such as phosphorous smoke non doc, grenades from the turret of a tank destroying AT guns, crews, etc.

Well, I don't think so. A player should basically shoot it the exact number of AT shots that the unit was balanced around. Small arms shouldn't add their damage imo (unless, of course, we allow that for allied half trucks, too) I would rather halftracks were more sturdy to promote light vehicle play.

Another argument for it would be the fact that, for example, Soviets have ptrs which are very effective against them anyway (Guards get their ptrs for free!). Also allied infantry (UKF, USF) can equip bazookas, piats on any squad so that is also not a problem to just equip them with it.

It would even out the infantry engagements a bit, too. Allies would have to equip some units with hand held ATs losing some of their AI capacity - an intended and important game design tradeoff. Now they can safely just ignore the need to purchase hand held AT or snares at that stage of the game. It leads to infantry engagements imbalance. Of course these are small details but they add up.

Finally, there are mgs which deal with halftrucks pretty well and they probably should.

Its true ukf have many odd abilities on units such the aec and grenades from turrets. But they are also very limited in snares or mobile mortar with stock units. So imo there not broken but weird nonetheless.

Rng is a big part of this game. Its not like at guns hit halftracks 100%. If the 251 becomes invunerable to small arms it needs to be delayed. And the 251 bbq will have far less time to burn.

Its true ukf have many odd abilities on units such the aec and grenades from turrets. But they are also very limited in snares or mobile mortar with stock units. So imo there not broken but weird nonetheless.

Rng is a big part of this game. Its not like at guns hit halftracks 100%. If the 251 becomes invunerable to small arms it needs to be delayed. And the 251 bbq will have far less time to burn.

Agree with all the above. Maybe just not really with limited snares. They got a snare sniper and Aec to snare. Then they got the engies which are actually a very potent combat squad. They can also equip piats on any unit. So it's not too bad.

All in all, my tourney observation suggests that UKF is probably the strongest atm and generally it is easier to win as allies in 1v1 due to the fact that you can simply make more mistakes with them. My idea to slightly buff halftrack armour is a step to making the balance more equal. Not a big change tbh.

AEC comes literally 5 fuel later than than 222 scoutcar / halftrack.




3 Shots from the AEC isn't that bad either ( you can also just need 2 Shots when you have some RNG in your favor with the MG / damaged it a tiny bit with section rifles )

Its probably me but it always seemed the eac came later. But thanks for the correction.

But i remain of the opinion that because the 251 comes out when there is little to na at and that it can heal place mines and become clowncar 2000 it should be able to be damaged by small arms. Not other halftrack has that much utility and damage potential vs inf with dual flamers.