No compensation for deleting the Ost T4 cap buff?

Ostheer was seriously lacking behind in the lategame in 2019 and thus got a passive buff for T4 including a cap speed buff since the squads were so fragile and lacked field presence.

Heavy Panzer Korps

In an attempt to increase the power of Ostheer's late game without increasing the power of its units, we are giving the structure a passive bonus for the army. This will reward players for teching to T4 and allow Ostheer to be more aggressive by reducing the bleed on core infantry units. The increased capture speed should also allow Ostheer players to retake sections of the map more quickly in the late game.

Now reduces the reinforce cost of Pioneers, Grenadiers, and Osttruppen by 2
Reduces the reinforce cost of all team weapons by 10%
Increases the capture and decapture rate of all Ostheer infantry units by 25%


People even thought that the winter buffs were too little and didn't really help Ost T4. And then the cap buff was deleted without any compensation for it.... leaving Ost lategame in a bad state again.


All Out War Passive

Due to the nature of this issue overriding other capture bonuses provided by ability, we are removing the capture bonus.

10% Capture Speed Bonus Removed.


Long story short. I think Ost needs something for the loss of the cap buff. Even when there was a cap buff it was arguably not enough to make T4 viable. So now we are back to the underpowered state of Ost T4.

From my perpective that patch and the last one made OST T4 meta again. I think the whole faction scales overall nicely into the late game. Not sure why they'd need any buffs right now for that phase.

Also the Gren damage reduction helped a lot with late game wipability of units

Imo the buff should be move to BP3 and not on the building itself.

Long story short. I think Ost needs something for the loss of the cap buff. Even when there was a cap buff it was arguably not enough to make T4 viable. So now we are back to the underpowered state of Ost T4.

Unlock ability to upgrade to 5 man Grenadier squad ( 5 x Kar98k ).

If previously have upgraded with LMG-42 / G43 / pick up a weapon = no longer able to upgraded to 5 man squad ( like how Conscript 7 man works ).

With this Grenadier will have easier time to pick up crew weapons, acting as meat bag for other squad.

just my 50cent

And then the cap buff was deleted without any compensation for it.... leaving Ost lategame in a bad state again.

I like how you decided not to include this from the same patch:

Tech Changes

Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:

Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
Support Armour Korp -T3- no longer has a fuel cost
Heavy Panzer Korp -T4- building no longer has a fuel cost

Their late-game is absolutely fine. The fact that anyone is still complaining about Ost t4 is fucking incredible

Unlock ability to upgrade to 5 man Grenadier squad ( 5 x Kar98k ).

No. It's in a doctrine for a reason.

Does the buff they received need compensation? Like if we decided that obers should get a 2nd lmg34 and then decide they actually don't do we have to give them a participation trophy?

Unlock ability to upgrade to 5 man Grenadier squad ( 5 x Kar98k ).

If previously have upgraded with LMG-42 / G43 / pick up a weapon = no longer able to upgraded to 5 man squad ( like how Conscript 7 man works ).

With this Grenadier will have easier time to pick up crew weapons, acting as meat bag for other squad.

just my 50cent

You're not getting doctrinal selling point of highly specialized doctrine as stock thing.
Accept reality already.

No need to, Ostheer is plenty strong. If anything T1 skips should be nerfed next patch.

Ostheer was seriously lacking behind in the lategame in 2019

No they never were, not even in 1v1. A common complaint however was that t4 is not attractive in 1v1 which is a fair point, however "late game" and "t4" is not exactly the same.


They dont need it anyway I think, as if Osttruppen, 5men- and assgren strats weren't strong enough already in 1v1.

Does the buff they received need compensation? Like if we decided that obers should get a 2nd lmg34 and then decide they actually don't do we have to give them a participation trophy?

And that right there should put a wrap on this thread

They are lacking behind in early and mid game and have average late game. It's hardly OKAY...

The Panther is frankly a joke (for a "hunter tank destroyer" with only 0.5 moving accuracy against swarms of long range self spotting tank destroyers) can it effectively chase down other tank? no it can't even do that either ..

On top of this the Brummbar's range is way to short and its gun is laughably inaccurate needing insane micro manual fire to even hit the target with its ultra slow rate of fire and even slower shell speed which by the way a disabled 98 year old in a wheel chair could outmanoeuvre.

The only thing that stops Wehr sinking like quicksand compared to the other factions are its doctrine units.

Until relatively recently, Ostheer T4 was more of a 'bonus' tier. In a way it still kind of is, it's just a lot more accessible. The Panzer IV is still the counterpart of the Sherman and T-34, and T4 is now more akin to getting Hammer/Anvil so you can get stronger tanks, a benefit exclusive to Ostheer and British (and afforded to OKW as standard tech),

They are lacking behind in early and mid game and have average late game. It's hardly OKAY...

The Panther is frankly a joke (for a "hunter tank destroyer" with only 0.5 moving accuracy against swarms of long range self spotting tank destroyers) can it effectively chase down other tank? no it can't even do that either ..

On top of this the Brummbar's range is way to short and its gun is laughably inaccurate needing insane micro manual fire to even hit the target with its ultra slow rate of fire and even slower shell speed which by the way a disabled 98 year old in a wheel chair could outmanoeuvre.

The only thing that stops Wehr sinking like quicksand compared to the other factions are its doctrine units.

Panther has armour of Pershing, penetration of Pershing, faster than Sherman and better acceleration (even more so with blitz), fires faster than Pershing, pintle MG upgrade for AI.
Furthermore, Panther has enough survivability to dive most tanks on close range so that you don't even have to press "S" to stop the Panther, and if you fail to press "S" when engaging tanks with a tanky, 50 range (10 more than mediums, 10 less than squishy TDs) Panther, then you really fail at Wehr.
Brumbar has 5 range less (35 range as opposed to 40 on mediums) than medium tanks like Sherman and it drops a bomb that wipes squads easily and bleeds any infantry in it's range.
Which self spotting TDs are you referring to? Jackson has 60 range and 35 sight meaning he has to be damn close to fire on it's own without any infantry to give vision (and USF lacks sniper to spot in camo)
Firefly as well, 35 sight
SU-85 also 35 sight with possibility to greatly reduce the cone vision in favor of further sight (only viable if you already know that there is a tank at just the right position).
You know which tank is self spotting? Brummbar, 35 sight, 35 range.

If you fail to utilize Wehr's units and vast possibilities, it's your own fault. I don't think I've had games around my rank (64) where OST players struggle. Most struggling usually comes from soviet players that decide to go penals build, at least in my experience.

When I first started playing COH2, it was recommended to me to play OST because they were good enough without having to rely on doctrines.

Now, it seems the reverse is true. Ost is really only good with Ass Grens, Ostruppen, and VSL's.

If you choose anything else, you are automatically handicapping yourself.

..Again, everyone got a buff, and Ost got it's buff removed because it interfered with other things.

How about:

T4 (All buildings built)

Grens unlock Panzer STG 44's, 45 munitions (less than 60 because of timing, locks out other upgrades)

Upon building T4, has built-in upgrade for engineers to repair damaged units (100 man, 20 fuel)

Engineers get 5 man upgrade, but must manually reinforce to go from 4 to 5.

Thoughts?

Snip

You preach a lot for a faction you've never used in automatch.

Panther has armour of Pershing, penetration of Pershing, faster than Sherman and better acceleration (even more so with blitz), fires faster than Pershing, pintle MG upgrade for AI.
Furthermore, Panther has enough survivability to dive most tanks on close range so that you don't even have to press "S" to stop the Panther, and if you fail to press "S" when engaging tanks with a tanky, 50 range (10 more than mediums, 10 less than squishy TDs) Panther, then you really fail at Wehr.
Brumbar has 5 range less (35 range as opposed to 40 on mediums) than medium tanks like Sherman and it drops a bomb that wipes squads easily and bleeds any infantry in it's range.
Which self spotting TDs are you referring to? Jackson has 60 range and 35 sight meaning he has to be damn close to fire on it's own without any infantry to give vision (and USF lacks sniper to spot in camo)
Firefly as well, 35 sight
SU-85 also 35 sight with possibility to greatly reduce the cone vision in favor of further sight (only viable if you already know that there is a tank at just the right position).
You know which tank is self spotting? Brummbar, 35 sight, 35 range.

If you fail to utilize Wehr's units and vast possibilities, it's your own fault. I don't think I've had games around my rank (64) where OST players struggle. Most struggling usually comes from soviet players that decide to go penals build, at least in my experience.

Thats the point. Ost struggles at 1v1 and 2v2. Since in larger modes it is easier to come to the late game, without having to relay heavily on t1 units

just how bad would it be to have non-doctrine 5man gren squads like Kyle suggested?
OFC this would cause some other issues but how is this a big problem?

The first thing Grens need is the abilty to build their own cover and a 5th man upgrade at tier 4. This will help them not become a roflstomp compared to other infantry.

It's very bad faction design to have them to crutch on 3 main doctrines because the faction as a whole is just weaker compared to their counterparts.

well, OST needs armour early to compensate for average-ish INF. I supposes if OST was given the option to go 5man gren at T2? it could give OST more options in doctrine-choice