KV1's and KV8's main gun penetration
27 Jul 2020, 17:53 PM
#1
Posts: 159
I don't if you guys have realized that, but KV8 has better close range penetration than KV1. 140 compare to 120. Is the penetration it too high for the 45mm or the 76mm just suppose to be bad in this game?
27 Jul 2020, 18:06 PM
#2
Posts: 783
I don't if you guys have realized that, but KV8 has better close range penetration than KV1. 140 compare to 120. Is the penetration it too high for the 45mm or the 76mm just suppose to be bad in this game?
The 45mm has worse penetration at mid and far ranges with are typically more useful to tank on tank engagements. In addition, the 45mm only does 80 damage per shot compared to 160 with the 76mm. While the 45 does reload slightly faster, it does not make up for the lack of damage per shot.
And of course the 76mm has a decent aoe profile making it useful against infantry while the 45mm is basically useless against infantry.
The 76mm is simply better. The 45mm does give the KV8 a small degree of protection against light vehicles such as the puma, but should not be relied upon unsupported to deal with medium armor.
27 Jul 2020, 18:49 PM
#3
Posts: 5279
This is intended. That way the rather expensive AI unit CAN engage enemy armour... At point blank. At great risk to itself.
#stalinwept
27 Jul 2020, 20:04 PM
#4
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
KV-8 gun is designed as a defensive tool against flanking P4s, its not going to kill anything at long range with it.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Jul 2020, 09:19 AM
#5
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
KV-8 close penetration is too high, especially compared to C. PzIV.
KV-8 itself should either become call-in or have its power level decreased by becoming cheaper and less powerful.
KV-8 itself should either become call-in or have its power level decreased by becoming cheaper and less powerful.
28 Jul 2020, 09:36 AM
#6
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
KV-8 close penetration is too high, especially compared to C. PzIV.
KV-8 itself should either become call-in or have its power level decreased by becoming cheaper and less powerful.
How can the 45mm gun that is barely used anyway justify a nerf to the unit?
28 Jul 2020, 10:08 AM
#7
Posts: 1273
How can the 45mm gun that is barely used anyway justify a nerf to the unit?
I haven't seen any KV-8 for months, or any KV-8s action that was worth recalling for. I would love seeing more diversity in the game by making units a valid choice to players. A nerf to the KV's would be like dancing on the units graves. There should be a solution that makes the unit more attractive, and not another call to nerf things that aren't used. That doesn't make sense to me, or the game's balance itself. There's no justification. The nerf culture is tremendous and staggering. :/
28 Jul 2020, 10:26 AM
#8
Posts: 282
I haven't seen any KV-8 for months, or any KV-8s action that was worth recalling for. I would love seeing more diversity in the game by making units a valid choice to players. A nerf to the KV's would be like dancing on the units graves. There should be a solution that makes the unit more attractive, and not another call to nerf things that aren't used. That doesn't make sense to me, or the game's balance itself. There's no justification. The nerf culture is tremendous and staggering. :/
I see more and more Comissar+Penals blobs in addition to KV-8, but I've never noticed the "power" of the 45mm, but it is clear that it is a pain in the ass to deal with while you only have AT gun.
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28 Jul 2020, 17:43 PM
#11
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
How can the 45mm gun that is barely used anyway justify a nerf to the unit?
I did not suggest a nerf. I suggested reducing the power level which would make it a more attractive alternative to main battle tank.
KV-8 currently is very expensive and that is part of the reason is why when it got tech cost the main's gun penetration was increased. This was a step in the wrong direction. The units should simply had become cheaper since it primarily an AI unit and has little reason to fight PZIVs.
28 Jul 2020, 18:20 PM
#12
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
Can we finally get simultaneous fire from a 45mm cannon and a flamethrower? This is the most effective method for the 45mm cannon to be used somehow.
30 Jul 2020, 06:40 AM
#13
Posts: 3
Can we finally get simultaneous fire from a 45mm cannon and a flamethrower? This is the most effective method for the 45mm cannon to be used somehow.
Croc does fire both, I don't see why KV-8 couldn't do the same, but I think the fire also fires from the turret, which Croc only fires when it's pointed towards infantry
30 Jul 2020, 10:47 AM
#14
Posts: 1096
KV-8 close penetration is too high, especially compared to C. PzIV.
KV-8 itself should either become call-in or have its power level decreased by becoming cheaper and less powerful.
Why the random comparison to the C.pz?
30 Jul 2020, 10:59 AM
#15
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
KV-8 itself should […] have its power level decreased by becoming cheaper and less powerful.
That doesn't make much sense, the only reason the KV-8 is occasionally used right now is because it has phenomenal anti infantry. Making it worse would put it closer to a T-34 which would probably make it even less attractive to use because then people would likely generally go for the safe bet of getting a generalist vehicle over an AI specialist, as is the case with the Hetzer. It needs to be good in order to be worth the risk of getting one instead of AT capable vehicles.
30 Jul 2020, 11:00 AM
#16
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Why the random comparison to the C.pz?
Because the penetration value of the 2 guns used to be similar.
30 Jul 2020, 11:08 AM
#17
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
That doesn't make much sense, the only reason the KV-8 is occasionally used right now is because it has phenomenal anti infantry. Making it worse would put it closer to a T-34 which would probably make it even less attractive to use because then people would likely generally go for the safe bet of getting a generalist vehicle over an AI specialist, as is the case with the Hetzer. It needs to be good in order to be worth the risk of getting one instead of AT capable vehicles.
It makes perfect sense. KV-8 is currently very expensive and as you say it is gamble. By making iit either a call-in or lower powerlevel one could use it t3 build support by SU-75 or one would gable less since the investment would be smaller.
As for the T-34/76 and hezter comparison they are simply of the mark. Hezter is allot cheaper/weaker and it supported by less AT assets. One could bring the power level of the KV-8 to around 100-120 so that is was at least cheaper the Soviet premium mediums like T-34/85 and M4C so that would not compare so bad to them.
In any case PzIV should not have so much trouble dealing with an "AI" tank like the KV-8.
30 Jul 2020, 11:15 AM
#18
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
As for the T-34/76 and hezter comparison they are simply of the mark. Hezter is allot cheaper/weaker and it supported by less AT assets. One could bring the power level of the KV-8 to around 100-120 so that is was at least cheaper the Soviet premium mediums like T-34/85 and M4C so that would not compare so bad to them.
You want to make it 100ish fuel which would put it right next to the Hetzer (90 fuel). That would absolutely put the KV-8 in a comparable position. I have no idea why the Hetzer would have less AT assets for support when OKW has a rather cheap T0 ATG and snares on all their mainline infantry by default.
There is also absolutely no way the KV-8 would ever be balanced when available at T3 unless it would get scaled down by an unimaginatively big amount, which again wouldn't make much sense because then it'd just compete with the T-70.
30 Jul 2020, 11:21 AM
#19
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You want to make it 100ish fuel which would put it right next to the Hetzer (90 fuel). That would absolutely put the KV-8 in a comparable position. I have no idea why the Hetzer would have less AT assets for support when OKW has a rather cheap T0 ATG and snares on all their mainline infantry by default.
KV-8 can be supported by Su-76 and it has more armour and HP than Hezter and a turret.
There is also absolutely no way the KV-8 would ever be balanced when available at T3 unless it would get scaled down by an unimaginatively big amount, which again wouldn't make much sense because then it'd just compete with the T-70.
I did not say it should be available at T3 I said a call-in unit as it used to be. It used to be so for year with little problems.
Point here is neither the current KV-8 solution or the Hetzer solution proved to be very successful.
30 Jul 2020, 11:31 AM
#20
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Because the penetration value of the 2 guns used to be similar.
And Penals DPS curve used to be similar to PG DPS curve.
Its completely irrelevant what was X years ago when things were completely imbalanced and struggled identity-wise.
What's next?
Are you going to suggest StuG 3 should have no more then 120-100 pen values and no more, because identical gun on P4 uses these values?
This is the level of ridiculous argumentation you're trying to pull here.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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