AVRE vs SturmTiger

1) Reduce AVRE wiping potential to match Sturmtiger one, AVRE overal all would be still better, but it wont be a wiping machine like it is now.

2) Increase overall Sturmtiger wiping potential to match AVRE one.

ST has better and larger AoE then AVRE.
You have graphs in this very thread.

AVRE has unreasonable hight frontal and rear armor, in general.

AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.

How to make sure a ST knows it's role :

Just get a stuka (or 2) instead. Bam, you get your wipes from range. And it only fires a little bit slower

Add suppression to the ST's projectile explosion. Add temporary gunner/driver crit to vehicles it hits. Simple change.

ST has better and larger AoE then AVRE.
You have graphs in this very thread.

Huh? Read graphs better? Its not. Not in its role and not in wiping.

All it do better, is deal half hp damage past 8 range, AVRE in excange wipes everything in 2 more range. Fugure it out what is better.

It might have better AOE design, but design doesnt mean it perform better.

AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.

How you can explain then, that the unit with better mobility, firing rate and turret is ment to sit in combat and be more resistant to flank attacks. While unit with infirior armor, mobility, and no turret is not? ST is ending up sitting in combat more then AVRE simply due to all of this.

Your argument that it can be used with KT is dodgy. No-one asked for KT+ST, ppl asked for normal ST. If this is the sole reason why ST sucks, then I can assure you it can be rolled back and noone will miss this "god like combo".

From a QOL game perpective yes ST is better if you are playing against it. Then if this is the case, how can you explain AVRE perfomance?

AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.

No shit, probably because of the crew dying if you reload it.

ST has better and larger AoE then AVRE.
You have graphs in this very thread.


AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.

exactly. thats why Sturmtiger need more than only a 5 range advanatge compared to AVRE.

make it 70 range and its fine.

Can the st still one shot mediums? If so up/op whyning needs to stop. And 70ish range with such potential and albeit slow mobility is not something okw or this game needs. Stuka already nujes team weapons and comes early.

Avre is 160 fuel? Thats way to cheap for what it can do and take. Up the fuel towards 200.

Can the st still one shot mediums?

It cant, even with direct hit mediums still need 1 hit from other tank\inf AT to finish it off.

After AVRE direct hit, mediums need 2 additional hits.

No shit, probably because of the crew dying if you reload it.

Well you asked stupid question and got answer to that.
No idea why you're getting worked up over this.

exactly. thats why Sturmtiger need more than only a 5 range advanatge compared to AVRE.

You aware of existence of stuka zu fuss?
Because you seem to be asking for stuka zu fuss here.

ST will never again be allowed to shoot into FoW again and even you aren't that big of a moron to not understand why.

After some fails of me trying to use the SturmTiger, I am also on the side that it could do with a light buff to its AoE and front armor. And make it at least match the explosion visuals with the damage that it does. Everything else seems OK; but I'm generally bad at playing OKW.

I really respect that you tried it
I thought you were a brit main who doesnt wanna look at from other side

I really respect respect that you tried it
I thought you were a brit main who doesnt wanna look at from other side

Haha, no I'm a British dude who plays exclusively OST 2on2. I don't like playing as OKW. I'd love a third faction which mixes both OKW and OST.

I pop 4on4 sometimes for fun.

1) Reduce AVRE wiping potential to match Sturmtiger one, AVRE overal all would be still better, but it wont be a wiping machine like it is now.

2) Increase overall Sturmtiger wiping potential to match AVRE one.

ST has better and larger AoE then AVRE.
You have graphs in this very thread.

I don't know how/why you guys say the ST had such a (clearly) better profile. The differences are quite slim and it's hard to predict the effects on a real match.

AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.

Well then it's price should go up?

AVRE is meant to actually sit in combat and take shots, ST not.

dude you are contradicting yourself
if avre can afford to sit in combat and cost 5 fuel less, there is a problem somewhere right ?

All it do better, is deal half hp damage past 8 range, AVRE in excange wipes everything in 2 more range.

Since this is the second time this pops up: It's actually about 1,5 meters, not 2 in difference.

How you can explain then, that the unit with better mobility, firing rate and turret is ment to sit in combat and be more resistant to flank attacks. While unit with infirior armor, mobility, and no turret is not? ST is ending up sitting in combat more then AVRE simply due to all of this.

You shoot yourself in the foot with that argument, these properties fit the Sturmtiger theme. Drive forwards, fire the rocket and then go back. Because the ST cannot sit in combat because of its lower armor and getting therefore penned more often. Casemate, faster driving, armor, reload, all this suggests hit and run.

Well then it's price should go up?

Donno, should it?
Would it make any difference?
It would impact exclusively 1v1, where neither of them is used outside of meme strats.

You'll have all the ullumulus complaining that more expensive unit does better job then.

I've said it already, neither of these should ever be implemented to coh2, the mechanics and principles they are build around are unfit for the game completely, they will never be in good balance spot and because of how fundamentally different they work and are meant to be used, they will never be balanced against each others performance.

I don't know how/why you guys say the ST had such a (clearly) better profile. The differences are quite slim and it's hard to predict the effects on a real match.

Raw differences are slim, but when you put into the perspective all the other facts about this units they are not slim what so ever.

Point in that this additional small range, adds up to the fact that no matter how or where your squad is placed and how models are spread out in cover, on direct hit it will wipe a squad in almost all cases.

Btw, since I dont have an excel installed, can you please make a graph with old ST AOE profile. And compare them to the new one and AVRE. Here are the stats:

AOE radius 8
AOE distance 0.25/1.5/8.
AOE damage 1/1/0.3

Same damage.

You shoot yourself in the foot with that argument, these properties fit the Sturmtiger theme. Drive forwards, fire the rocket and then go back. Because the ST cannot sit in combat because of its lower armor and getting therefore penned more often. Casemate, faster driving, armor, reload, all this suggests hit and run.

In coh2 hit and run themed vehicled are made so that they cant sustain much of a punishement and being vulnerable if they stay under direct fire or being focused on badly. Sure if AVRE had an armor of a medium, so you needed smoke and pre-planning when and where to attack, but its not. It has proper armor of a heavy tank and health aswell.

How is AVRE is vulnerable when its approaching the front line or being flanked by mediums. Its a hit and run heavy tank. Which can hit, bounce half of the shot, take few one, still have around ~600-700 HP, smoke a sigar and then run.

And its not like Allies in general dont have better long range TDs.

Well you asked stupid question and got answer to that.
No idea why you're getting worked up over this.

I'm not so worked up that I'm making shit up. Never asked any questions in this thread, much less from you. My main goal with trash cans is to put garbage where it belongs, not dig from it.

Imo one of the worst traits of the st is having to back off and out of the way enough just to reload so nothing wipes the crew. That's a shit ton of time on top of the actual reload

Sturmtiger is so much harder to get work... Wanna see a good example?

Here u go:

https://youtu.be/5m5RNk9MQC8

1h game. Sturmtiger had after 40min only 1 model killed and was vet 0...after it shot all the reload was ready

U pasted the wrong game or didn't pay attention close enough.

Donno, should it?
Would it make any difference?
It would impact exclusively 1v1, where neither of them is used outside of meme strats.

You'll have all the ullumulus complaining that more expensive unit does better job then.

I've said it already, neither of these should ever be implemented to coh2, the mechanics and principles they are build around are unfit for the game completely, they will never be in good balance spot and because of how fundamentally different they work and are meant to be used, they will never be balanced against each others performance.

If you say so.
Looks like it's impossible then to change any of the values of the ST in the mod editor.

Like most casemates, you see the ST in team games exclusively. 1v1 will never be impacted at all.

According to your logic, you cannot balance most units at all. SU85, Jackson, Firefly? Nope, no chance according to you. All these units function differently, but fulfill the same role. Hence, many of their offensive combat stats and even vet bonuses are similar or straight copies.

Since there is no clear winner on the AoE profiles, but the AVRE is better in most stats regarding survivability, there is no reason these units should cost the same.

Btw, since I dont have an excel installed, can you please make a graph with old ST AOE profile. And compare them to the new one and AVRE.

Yes

In coh2 hit and run themed vehicled are made so that they cant sustain much of a punishement and being vulnerable if they stay under direct fire or being focused on badly. Sure if AVRE had an armor of a medium, so you needed smoke and pre-planning when and where to attack, but its not. It has proper armor of a heavy tank and health aswell.

How is AVRE is vulnerable when its approaching the front line or being flanked by mediums. Its a hit and run heavy tank. Which can hit, bounce half of the shot, take few one, still have around ~600-700 HP, smoke a sigar and then run.

And its not like Allies in general dont have better long range TDs.

Yes, this is exactly my point. You said the ST were sitting in combat more than the AVRE, which is not the case. The AVRE is much less vulnerable and quite a bit slower. It's meant to drive forwards and sit there while sustaining all the damage.

Yes, this is exactly my point. You said the ST were sitting in combat more than the AVRE, which is not the case. The AVRE is much less vulnerable and quite a bit slower. It's meant to drive forwards and sit there while sustaining all the damage.

I still dont see why AVRE need to sit in combat. I was saying that ST sitting in combat more, due to the fact it takes him longer to aim and longer to rotate.

Regarding speed, I wouldnt say its slower, because max speed is not > then accel decel and totation.

If you take scenarious where you need to drive forward, shoot and drive back. It would take ST longer to do all of this, meaning it will spend more time potentially under fire and it would be more dangerous for it, since it cant bounce