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russian armor

AVRE vs SturmTiger

21 Jul 2020, 17:48 PM
#21
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2020, 15:20 PMVipper
ST does not benefit from HEAT shell or Panzer Commanders so there is not that much synergy within Commander.


There is no other unit that would (without becoming hilariously overpowered). Elite Armor is good even with the Sturmtiger. Moving it to another doctrine would essentially be a nerf to whatever one it goes to.
21 Jul 2020, 18:06 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



There is no other unit that would (without becoming hilariously overpowered). Elite Armor is good even with the Sturmtiger. Moving it to another doctrine would essentially be a nerf to whatever one it goes to.

ST can easily go to :
Overwatch
Special Operation
Breakthrough
Scavenger
Feuestrum

Then the unit can be re-balanced...
21 Jul 2020, 18:10 PM
#23
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956

The recent buff to the Naw grenade launcher was welcome, but judging off its near absence from games.....the core profile of the unit is sorely lacking. I did not realise the AOE was so terrible until I read this thread, hmmmm. What is the justification for its forced reload button + slower movement whilst reloading + vulnerability to knocking out during reload now? Back when it was one shotting mediums these things made perfect sense but not any more.

21 Jul 2020, 18:14 PM
#24
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2020, 18:06 PMVipper

ST can easily go to :
Overwatch
Special Operation
Breakthrough
Scavenger
Feuestrum

Then the unit can be re-balanced...


I honestly dont think that it should go anywhere.

Because it has no place in any other doctrine. Its just need a normal AOE profile, which should be at least a bit better then AVRE one, considering all the drawbacks. Even its AOE penetration could be nerfed, one can care less how much penetration it deals to the tanks.

Or optionally AVRE should be on Sturmtiger level of perfomance. But in this case we would have 2 shitty units to play with.
21 Jul 2020, 18:48 PM
#25
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2020, 18:06 PMVipper

ST can easily go to :
Overwatch
Special Operation
Breakthrough
Scavenger
Feuestrum

Then the unit can be re-balanced...


There is nothing that can replace it. Not within the scope of your argument (that the unit should synergise with other the other Elite Armor abilities).

And it can't be rebalanced within realistic terms either. It has gotten a lot of QoL buffs lately and it's good enough for casual play now. There's not much more that can be done within Relic's current scope of no major changes. Similar to a unit like the B4, it will just never be competitive due to its nature.
21 Jul 2020, 19:00 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



There is nothing that can replace it. Not within the scope of your argument (that the unit should synergise with other the other Elite Armor abilities).

I did not suggest that a another unit should go to elite armor to replace ST.

What I am saying is simply 2 abilities of the commander do not work with ST and that makes ST less attractive with in the Commander. One of the also allows tank to call in arty making the ST shots even less attractive.

One can replace the ST in Elite armor with a ability that makes vehicle cap territories or a cheap repair unit that uses crew uniforms so that SP can have help.


And it can't be rebalanced within realistic terms either. It has gotten a lot of QoL buffs lately and it's good enough for casual play now. There's not much more that can be done within Relic's current scope of no major changes. Similar to a unit like the B4, it will just never be competitive due to its nature.


As long as Relic's "scope" is not public there will suggestions outside the "scope". It is my understanding thou (and i can be wrong) that Relic has allowed many thing that there were originally outside of the scope.
22 Jul 2020, 08:26 AM
#27
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


And it can't be rebalanced within realistic terms either. It has gotten a lot of QoL buffs lately and it's good enough for casual play now. ... Similar to a unit like the B4, it will just never be competitive due to its nature.


B4 and AVRE can be used competitively, maybe not in 1v1 and not in super top play, but both units are in meta somewhat. But sturm as you point out is a casual unit which realistically is useless against players who know how the game works.

And there is nothing about "relic scope", I belive that there is no more "scope".

I honestly dont know how and on which conditions balance team works, but sturmtiger was nerfed across the board, AVRE wasnt, even considering the fact that AVRE was always better then sturm in its role.

If balance team wanted Sturm to be more forgining and not deleating armies from the game by 1 click, thats why they left him with this AOE profile, then it also should have been applyed to AVRE.
22 Jul 2020, 09:14 AM
#28
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

AVRE is simple the easier-to-use unit. It has very good mobility, automatic reload, high armor, turret, and has faster shot animation.

it's really easy to flank and to wipe retreating unit with it...while it is nearly impossible with a sturmtiger.

the sturmtiger need a faster shoot animation and reload like a AVRE...than it will be better
22 Jul 2020, 09:19 AM
#29
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

You couldn't be any more wrong, the AVRE is deffo not a unit that is easy to flank with. Retreating units outspeed it. Even if it flanked successfully, it wouldn't be able to retreat alive.
22 Jul 2020, 09:25 AM
#30
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

You couldn't be any more wrong, the AVRE is deffo not a unit that is easy to flank with. Even if it flanked successfully, it wouldn't be able to retreat alive.



why not? it has the same flank abilty like any other tank since it has high armor and HP and even the same speed like other big tanks...a good flank is a flank where u dont lose all ur stuff...your enemy will lose his stuff because of been overrun. this is much easier than with a ST which needs really to be more defensely. AVRE can even operate with ur tank army...since it reload on the move without any disadvantages like ST
22 Jul 2020, 09:27 AM
#31
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

rrrrrrrright, the avre is now a easy flanking unit because ullu says so. Not sure if you ever used the unit. Based raw on speed max stats and using what ullu says as ground truth both units should be the best ever flanking unit ever!
22 Jul 2020, 09:41 AM
#32
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

rrrrrrrright, the avre is now a easy flanking unit because ullu says so. Not sure if you ever used the unit. Based raw on speed max stats and using what ullu says as ground truth both units should be the best ever flanking unit ever!


Do u like trolling? can u quote the sentence where i said, that this both unit should be the best flanking unit ever?
22 Jul 2020, 09:42 AM
#33
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322

AVRE is simple the easier-to-use unit. It has very good mobility, automatic reload, high armor, turret, and has faster shot animation.

it's really easy to flank and to wipe retreating unit with it...while it is nearly impossible with a sturmtiger.

the sturmtiger need a faster shoot animation and reload like a AVRE...than it will be better


uh huh no that would be too much buff because SturmTiger already got 1000 penetrate and better damage #stop_buffing_axis_rage

To be serious thought I agree that SturmTiger is hot trash: take too long too fire, need to turn into a direct line before can fire, slow fire animation blah blah blah.

What's the point of big damage and penetrate when enemy will always faster than you can even fire?

ARVE is so much better ( just like what you said )
22 Jul 2020, 09:46 AM
#34
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



can u quote the sentence where I said, that this both unit should be the best flanking unit ever?


OK, there you go. If it's really easy according to you to flank and wipe retreating (!) units with what you say it's a high-speed high armour and high HP tank with the same flank abilities as any other big tanks, then they should be the best flanking unit ever as no other tanks can do all of that.


it's really easy to flank and to wipe retreating unit with it...



it has the same flank abilty like any other tank since it has high armor and HP and even the same speed like other big tanks...



22 Jul 2020, 10:35 AM
#35
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

You couldn't be any more wrong, the AVRE is deffo not a unit that is easy to flank with. Retreating units outspeed it. Even if it flanked successfully, it wouldn't be able to retreat alive.


Hm? His frontal and rear armor provide more then enouth protection to reliably tank anything but AT\TD tanks, its accel and deccel gives him his max speed in about ~1 second + he has crit repair with vet 3.

Its not panther or comet like easy to flank with but its not hard to flank with AVRE, but honestly you dont even have to. You can just fast drive forward shoot and drive back. For extra safety you can even use stock smoke on IS.

Its sturmtiger, who need pre-panning, pre-placing, pre-aiming and other shenanigans to make at least some use of it.
22 Jul 2020, 10:38 AM
#36
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



And it can't be rebalanced within realistic terms either. It has gotten a lot of QoL buffs lately and it's good enough for casual play now. There's not much more that can be done within Relic's current scope of no major changes. Similar to a unit like the B4, it will just never be competitive due to its nature.


The way it was + a little extra firing time would be acceptable. Then it requires and rewards leading your enemy and the counter play would be scouting. In its current form the enemy doesn't really have to do anything to avoid getting hurt badly by it.
The enemy being able to see it long before it fires while it also being unable to track and broadcasting where it's going to fire is a recipe for hot garbage..
The only feasible change I could see to the live version as a QOL change would be to add redflares to show where it's going to shoot as a means to underline that the unit should not be used.
22 Jul 2020, 10:39 AM
#37
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273


You can just fast drive forward shoot and drive back. For extra safety you can even use stock smoke on IS.


Exactly, that's how the units like Avre or Sturms are at their best. They are not designed as a flanking unit like the panther or comet or M10s (and other) flanking strengths.
22 Jul 2020, 10:42 AM
#38
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1



Exactly, that's how to the units like Avre or Sturms. It is not designed as a flanking unit and it does not have the panther or comet flanking strengths.


Yeah except, not all maps are essentially straight lines. Sturm need to turn in 99% scenarios if its not pre-placed, which effetively increase its firing time by additional few seconds. With AVRE you can either use turret to not expose youself or just turn it (because turning speed is fast enough).

You can use AVRE offensively or defensively. Sturmtiger is only somewhat usable in defence and still gives worst AOE and damage results then AVRE.

There is litteraly no way or opproach to say that Sturm and AVRE are equal, AVRE is simply better unit across the board.

Sturm would have been alright unit with all its gimmicks untouched if it simply had better AOE then AVRE. But its AOE is not only worst then AVRE one, its just in general bad even without comparison.
22 Jul 2020, 10:49 AM
#39
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Point is, they're evidently not what other people above suggests they are.
22 Jul 2020, 11:08 AM
#40
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



OK, there you go. If it's really easy according to you to flank and wipe retreating (!) units with what you say it's a high-speed high armour and high HP tank with the same flank abilities as any other big tanks, then they should be the best flanking unit ever as no other tanks can do all of that.









i said quote the sentence where i said that these both units are the BEST FALNKIGN UNITS EVER. you quotet where i said its easy to flank with AVRE. not more. not less.
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