Pioneers after early game
6 May 2020, 17:28 PM
#101
Posts: 1351
I'd make them cheaper. They are too expensive for how necessary they are to ost. They build base, repair, sweep, recrew with difficulty as 4 men squads, lay defences and wire. Generally, the busiest engineer in game unit. They should cost no more than combat engineers and they would be ok (maybe 10mp more just because some players will be unhappy). Sov and ost are in the same boat in this context - cheap but not too potent but indispensable when repairs and engineer jobs are required. You could possibly make mg42 10 manpower more and pios 20 manpower less to satify some. I wouldn't toy with their stat at this gamestage - only with price.
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6 May 2020, 23:48 PM
#102
Posts: 2358
German Pioneers carriered K98s when they were used as supporter, there is a reason why there are also assault pioneers ingame. What we have in game, they are Panzerpioniere, main order to repair vehicles.
a. give them K98.
b. or, give them Pistols and a real assault upgrade with flamer.
I hate current pioneers. Simply bad design. They were nerfed into ground because game got assault-grens. Then OKW got assault-pioneers having STG44 with MP40 stats. xD
ingame Lugar has nearly same DPS as current pio's MP40, but why we fu*king using MP40 for every sh*t unit? Also weapon crews shouldn't have MP40. Making a bluepring having a normal spectrum of DPS is what a game needs, for visuality.
Edit: Same sh*t why storm grens gets MP40 with ~ PPsh stats... simply give them PPsh instead. CoH's balancing is also by hearing.
Also Osttruppen would be more logical with an other weapon.
I like this idea of giving Pios some lugers and leave Mp40 out of the "Trash tier SMG" category. It is very confusing that stormtroopers have it aswell and shred infantry but pios spread their guns and cause little to no damage at all. I am not saying that pios should have ST Mp40, i am saying makes no sense to have such a big gap between the two weapon profiles
7 May 2020, 02:23 AM
#103
Posts: 5279
there are like 90 variants of kar98s as well, or how about g43s? Nagants? M1 carbines?
I like this idea of giving Pios some lugers and leave Mp40 out of the "Trash tier SMG" category. It is very confusing that stormtroopers have it aswell and shred infantry but pios spread their guns and cause little to no damage at all. I am not saying that pios should have ST Mp40, i am saying makes no sense to have such a big gap between the two weapon profiles
If there is a gun there's 10 basicly.
If the versions of the gun give you trouble consider guns are only as good as the guy using it. This is why guards can get more out of a nagant than cons can and this is why 200mp pios don't get as much out of it as 280mp elite infantry.
#stalinwept
7 May 2020, 03:27 AM
#104
Posts: 2358
If the versions of the gun give you trouble consider guns are only as good as the guy using it.
I did this from the begining and its a very good concept for newer players to learn the game.
My point was that there was too much difference in performance between Pio MP40 and ST Mp40. I remember it was mentioned when ST got their Mp40 free upgrade and weapon profile change. But i think its worth to mention again-
7 May 2020, 09:10 AM
#105
Posts: 28
Giving pistols to units that aren't officers or medics looks bad, artistically. They're on the frontline, so they should have real guns.
And the reason you propose this change is ridiculous. You want to 'leave Mp40 out of the "Trash tier SMG" category'? Why would you care?
And the reason you propose this change is ridiculous. You want to 'leave Mp40 out of the "Trash tier SMG" category'? Why would you care?
7 May 2020, 09:48 AM
#106
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
What I had suggested a long time ago was that pioneer could get a single luger with inferior stat and have their MP-40 buffed. That would make keep pioneer about the current levels but increase the performance of pioneer that upgrade with a flamer or sweeper.
7 May 2020, 14:41 PM
#107
Posts: 5279
I did this from the begining and its a very good concept for newer players to learn the game.
My point was that there was too much difference in performance between Pio MP40 and ST Mp40. I remember it was mentioned when ST got their Mp40 free upgrade and weapon profile change. But i think its worth to mention again-
Gotta keep in mind though that pgrens are a unit in the stock roster. You make pio mp40s good and you run into the problem with cons/penals where there's overlap and one will simply always be more cost effective. Pios are not intended to be fighting on the front much past when their weapons are effective (although they can still get the jump on weapon crews if the chance arises)
#stalinwept
7 May 2020, 15:23 PM
#108
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
The first and foremost problem with EFA Engineer units is that their veterancy requirements are (much) higher than Rear Echelons.
If they could reach vet 2 easier with their current performance, it wouldn't be important if they don't scale in combat. You want to avoid combat with them in any case, except if they have flamethrowers.
If they could reach vet 2 easier with their current performance, it wouldn't be important if they don't scale in combat. You want to avoid combat with them in any case, except if they have flamethrowers.
7 May 2020, 15:34 PM
#109
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
The first and foremost problem with EFA Engineer units is that their veterancy requirements are (much) higher than Rear Echelons.
If they could reach vet 2 easier with their current performance, it wouldn't be important if they don't scale in combat. You want to avoid combat with them in any case, except if they have flamethrowers.
It has probably to do with RE vet0 bad accuracy.
7 May 2020, 15:36 PM
#110
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
It has probably to do with RE vet0 bad accuracy.
Another myth.
RE have better DPS than C.E. and there is nothing wrong with their accuracy because they have high ROF.
7 May 2020, 15:54 PM
#111
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Another myth.
RE have better DPS than C.E. and there is nothing wrong with their accuracy because they have high ROF.
Why do you compare only combat engineer on a topic dedicated to pioneers.
7 May 2020, 16:20 PM
#112
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Why do you compare only combat engineer on a topic dedicated to pioneers.
Because they both have long range rifles.
You want compare RE with pioneer on accuracy ?
ok here are the numbers:
Pioneers:
Accuracy near 0.463
Accuracy mid 0.27
Accuracy far 0.115
RE
Accuracy near 0.403
Accuracy mid 0.288
Accuracy far 0.23
Re have better accuracy from mid and above so if RE have "bad" accuracy according to you Pionners have even worse accuracy.
Are you happy now?
7 May 2020, 16:39 PM
#113
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Because they both have long range rifles.
You want compare RE with pioneer on accuracy ?
ok here are the numbers:
Pioneers:
Accuracy near 0.463
Accuracy mid 0.27
Accuracy far 0.115
RE
Accuracy near 0.403
Accuracy mid 0.288
Accuracy far 0.23
Re have better accuracy from mid and above so if RE have "bad" accuracy according to you Pionners have even worse accuracy.
Are you happy now?
which is giving close to 0 information about the situation.
7 May 2020, 18:15 PM
#114
Posts: 2358
It has probably to do with RE vet0 bad accuracy.
Comparable to Mp40 and ex CE mosin trash DPS (notice the Ex CE mosin, they now have a better one)
7 May 2020, 18:18 PM
#115
Posts: 2358
Because they both have long range rifles.
You want compare RE with pioneer on accuracy ?
ok here are the numbers:
Pioneers:
Accuracy near 0.463
Accuracy mid 0.27
Accuracy far 0.115
RE
Accuracy near 0.403
Accuracy mid 0.288
Accuracy far 0.23
Re have better accuracy from mid and above so if RE have "bad" accuracy according to you Pionners have even worse accuracy.
Are you happy now?
Vipper, allow me to put this numbers in forums terms.
RE have the DOUBLE of acc at FAR distance compared to PIOS.
About the SAME at MID distance.
Rougly 12% lower at NEAR distance.
Volley fire is still an option, stopping any intent of Pios to close the game.
And both units are engineer units and trash tier combat units.
But after all, the vet of RE are still far lower than CE and PIOS.
What about that?
7 May 2020, 18:43 PM
#116
Posts: 4474
it's called power creep and forgetting to adjust vet
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
7 May 2020, 20:06 PM
#117
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Vipper, allow me to put this numbers in forums terms.
RE have the DOUBLE of acc at FAR distance compared to PIOS.
About the SAME at MID distance.
Rougly 12% lower at NEAR distance.
Volley fire is still an option, stopping any intent of Pios to close the game.
And both units are engineer units and trash tier combat units.
But after all, the vet of RE are still far lower than CE and PIOS.
What about that?
I think you talking about XP value.
One has to add that RE get one of the best vet 1 bonus with +20% accuracy so once more that "RE have bad accuracy" is simply a Myth.
9 May 2020, 04:49 AM
#118
Posts: 359
Vipper, allow me to put this numbers in forums terms.
RE have the DOUBLE of acc at FAR distance compared to PIOS.
About the SAME at MID distance.
Rougly 12% lower at NEAR distance.
Volley fire is still an option, stopping any intent of Pios to close the game.
And both units are engineer units and trash tier combat units.
But after all, the vet of RE are still far lower than CE and PIOS.
What about that?
You forget that Pios shred at close range compared to RE.
I think comparing RE's to Pios is kinda unfair.
RE's role is to provide smoke, build emplacements, sweep mines and the occasional volley fire. They rarely have to repair because USF can repair their own tanks unless its the Pershing. Because RE repair is mostly not needed and they revolve around their abilities (smoke/volley fire) they should be better fighters thank Pios to compensate. Otherwise they are just a glorified smoke launching unit that USF keep around.
Pios on the other hand are the only OST repair unit. They get the minesweeper repair upgrade because their main role is to repair and sweep mines. One thing that makes Pios unique to all other engineer squads is the great mines they have access to. I think if any buff were to happen then the munitions cost of their mines need to go up to compensate. Their quirk is that they are the best 'builder' unit in terms of mines and repairing.
I do agree that their vet needs to be lowered though to match other factions especially since they are a (mediocre) close range oriented squad.
9 May 2020, 06:31 AM
#119
Posts: 785
Looking through this entire bloody thread and not one person recommends lowering Pio/CE vet requirements to Rear Echelon levels (that's right, Rear Echelons have even lower veterancy requirements, and IMO all engineers should have it.)
On the other hand I also agree with people who think Pios and CEs should get a received accuracy buff of some sort, and I also think the cooldown bonus should be increased (primarily benefitting Flamethrowers and Pio MP40s; Combat Engineer rifles have their cooldown offset by a long winddown time)
As for non-doc 5-man pioniers, I think that would need to be examined closely in detail first, particularly with regard to how much repair speed is increased when combined with the sweeper, maybe having one upgrade lock out the other.
9 May 2020, 06:33 AM
#120
Posts: 2358
Pios vs RE was brought up because the latter has updated lower vet values, because the read a debate on give pios shared xp or work xp. Someone spitted the cost of RE vs Pios as a reflection of accuracy. That was the end of it.
@applejack
I think that if you keep comparing them but at the same time you said it's not fair to compare them, it justs debunks yourself. It doesn't matter Anyways, you got a good but incomplete image of the units and their factions but that's fine, this debate is going too technical.
In any case the point was pios xp values and their weapons profile. I think that sadly the won't be any easy solution.
@applejack
I think that if you keep comparing them but at the same time you said it's not fair to compare them, it justs debunks yourself. It doesn't matter Anyways, you got a good but incomplete image of the units and their factions but that's fine, this debate is going too technical.
In any case the point was pios xp values and their weapons profile. I think that sadly the won't be any easy solution.
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