Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed

Just hoard 200mu and have 90fuel and 300mp ready to risk. And an enemy that can't spare any of their mainline infantry and 25mu.

Its literally the most expensive attempt to kill a heavy and its not even guaranteed....

Do you park your T34's in your base until you see a heavy tank?
The munition hoard is a scam, yes, but you are also free to use it anytime, or at least until you start using those T34 to do something.

Do you park your T34's in your base until you see a heavy tank?
The munition hoard is a scam, yes, but you are also free to use it anytime, or at least until you start using those T34 to do something.

No, but my t34 might not be on hand (could be being repaired, or elsewhere) and the point was more to illustrate how silly it is to complain about a 90fuel 300mp snare when the counter can be as low as 25mu. I'm not sure how having one of many of your core squads around is too much to ask but sending in a single unit vastly more expensive is so easy it should be nerfed. It is as high of a risk as there is in this game. The reward is appropriate.

That's not true at all. For the ram to work it needs to be popped before the engine gets popped. If the ram is called and then you try and blow the engine you are too late. Support your damn armour instead of whining. It works better.

So not only does the Axis player have to run up to a 90 fuel vehicle, he also has to get a snare OFF(not start it, it has to have hit the tank), all the while having a considerably worse snare than the allied counterparts(as Faust only snares with a chance, unlike Allied ones which are 100%), but said tank also has to be damaged beforehand, or the snare will not even damage the engine.


And all of this has to happen before the allied player hits a SINGLE button, in order to prevent an 80 fuel unit from killing a 230 fuel unit.


Why doesn't the Soviet player have to support his IS 2 for example? Why does it counter everything in the Axis roster, even it's supposed hardcounters, without support?

No, but my t34 might not be on hand (could be being repaired, or elsewhere) and the point was more to illustrate how silly it is to complain about a 90fuel 300mp snare when the counter can be as low as 25mu. I'm not sure how having one of many of your core squads around is too much to ask but sending in a single unit vastly more expensive is so easy it should be nerfed. It is as high of a risk as there is in this game. The reward is appropriate.

It's 10 times sillier to pretend that the T34-76 is just a long range super fast nearly-unblockable snare with a guaranteed long-duration stun even on full health units. And even if it were, the fact that it's able to guarantee kills on tanks which cost 250% the price is kinda a big problem.

1) Faust doesn't stop ram.
2) Faust doesn't trigger when a tank is at full health.
3) Faust only has 15 range. Ram can start from easily triple that range.
4) Faust also takes a long time to load and fire. Even if you start the faust the moment the t34 starts its ram, the T34-76 can still ram the target before faust hits.
5) You seem to have no idea how insanely fast a ram can take place. Once you hear the engine whirl it's like 2 seconds to impact.

There's like a billion things wrong with your imaginary example of android-like players landing a hit on the T34 AND landing a faust on it BEFORE the T34-76 even starts its ram. You somehow think that asking for superhuman levels of micro and reaction JUST to counter a sloppily executed attack by a rank 5000 player is reasonable. I'd like to see you dodge a ram with a Jagdtiger against anyone reasonably within your skill bracket. I'll bet a thousand bucks you can't even do it 20% of the time. I can't even dodge rams 20% of the time with a Tiger against weaker opponents.

When the rank no. 4 Soviet tells you it's a problem there's a pretty good chance that your "just use a panzerfaust LUL" comments are utter rubbish that have no relevance to an actually competitive game.

It's 10 times sillier to pretend that the T34-76 is just a long range super fast nearly-unblockable snare with a guaranteed long-duration stun even on full health units. And even if it were, the fact that it's able to guarantee kills on tanks which cost 250% the price is kinda a big problem.

1) Faust doesn't stop ram.
2) Faust doesn't trigger when a tank is at full health.
3) Faust only has 15 range. Ram can start from easily triple that range.
4) Faust also takes a long time to load and fire. Even if you start the faust the moment the t34 starts its ram, the T34-76 can still ram the target before faust hits.
5) You seem to have no idea how insanely fast a ram can take place. Once you hear the engine whirl it's like 2 seconds to impact.

There's like a billion things wrong with your imaginary example of android-like players landing a hit on the T34 AND landing a faust on it BEFORE the T34-76 even starts its ram. You somehow think that asking for superhuman levels of micro and reaction JUST to counter a sloppily executed attack by a rank 5000 player is reasonable. I'd like to see you dodge a ram with a Jagdtiger against anyone reasonably within your skill bracket. I'll bet a thousand bucks you can't even do it 20% of the time. I can't even dodge rams 20% of the time with a Tiger against weaker opponents.

When the rank no. 4 Soviet tells you it's a problem there's a pretty good chance that your "just use a panzerfaust LUL" comments are utter rubbish that have no relevance to an actually competitive game.

+1

This issue is really hard to fix without deleting one of the abilities.
Trying to keep the abilities, I propose the following solution:


- make ram cost hefty mun (60+)
- lower ram price at vet 1 to something more appropriate (maybe 20-30-ish)
- in return, make the secure mode vet 0


This would solve the following:
1. The ram+IL-2 combo becomes less frequent since the total munition price is increased (not that hard of a nerf though for 2v2+, since double SOV can split the costs. Still, requirements to cost and especially coordination are higher now). Fine tuning can be done with the munition price of ram.
2. Building a fresh T34 for sacrifice is now more expensive/risky. Risking vetted T34s is encouraged.
3. The T34 would get a slight buff in terms of utility (secure mode now at vet0). It has the shittiest utility of all mediums anyway and is underused in every mode outside of 1v1, so this probably does not hurt anyway.


It's not a perfect fix that solves OP's problem once and for all, but it would be a push for "soft solving" two issues at once.

It's 10 times sillier to pretend that the T34-76 is just a long range super fast nearly-unblockable snare with a guaranteed long-duration stun even on full health units. And even if it were, the fact that it's able to guarantee kills on tanks which cost 250% the price is kinda a big problem.

1) Faust doesn't stop ram.
2) Faust doesn't trigger when a tank is at full health.
3) Faust only has 15 range. Ram can start from easily triple that range.
4) Faust also takes a long time to load and fire. Even if you start the faust the moment the t34 starts its ram, the T34-76 can still ram the target before faust hits.
5) You seem to have no idea how insanely fast a ram can take place. Once you hear the engine whirl it's like 2 seconds to impact.

There's like a billion things wrong with your imaginary example of android-like players landing a hit on the T34 AND landing a faust on it BEFORE the T34-76 even starts its ram. You somehow think that asking for superhuman levels of micro and reaction JUST to counter a sloppily executed attack by a rank 5000 player is reasonable. I'd like to see you dodge a ram with a Jagdtiger against anyone reasonably within your skill bracket. I'll bet a thousand bucks you can't even do it 20% of the time. I can't even dodge rams 20% of the time with a Tiger against weaker opponents.

When the rank no. 4 Soviet tells you it's a problem there's a pretty good chance that your "just use a panzerfaust LUL" comments are utter rubbish that have no relevance to an actually competitive game.

+1

It drives me crazy when people on coh2.org claim dodging a T34 ram is somehow easy and if you get rammed it's just your own fault for being stupid.

T34 ram + IL2 rocket/bombs is horrible and needs to be nerfed somehow. At least the the IL2 bombs it costs a lot and only works on heavy tanks but the IL2 rockets arrive so fast most of the time not even a Panther or P4 gets out alive.

- make ram cost hefty mun (60+)

Just addressing this, if ram had a muni cost, then it shouldn't have a tank cost and T34 should be able to crawl away with the same chances as its target.

Just addressing this, if ram had a muni cost, then it shouldn't have a tank cost and T34 should be able to crawl away with the same chances as its target.

From a theoretical point of view I agree, but:

IIRC, ram initially completely disabled the opponent's tank, too (I think it caused a gun crit and heavy engine damage). The design was to take out the expensive and more potent enemy tank for your cheap one and was also designed for use against "cheaper" P4s and Panthers.
After it got changed that only your T34 becomes a brick after ram, it was not worth it anymore to use it against P4s and often not even Panthers.

Now the only use is against super expensive heavies. Unless you propose a complete redesign of the ability and potentially the units affected by it, your point is not very strong. My suggestions could provide a fix to the current problem.

Just addressing this, if ram had a muni cost, then it shouldn't have a tank cost and T34 should be able to crawl away with the same chances as its target.

Thinking about it for a second time, I do not agree even theoretically.

If an ability provides too much gain for the cost, it should be nerfed by performance or cost. And it does not matter if you pay in MP, MUN or FU. The cost type is just a matter of balance.

And, let's face it, the total cost of ram is the T34+IL-2 strike while the gain is a Tiger or KT. Basically no one uses it outside of that scenario.

At the time, T34 was also even cheaper then it is now, below 300mp and at 80 fuel.

Its already too expensive to use it against mediums in situations other then certain loss.

Why do you want to nerf already extremely underused and niche ability, because it has too good synergy with off-map that instead could lose potency and cost instead is beyond my comprehension.

Using it already costs you a tank, unless you're in really favorable position to recover it and you rarely are if you need to use it, paying additional cost to lose a tank doesn't seem like a sane solution at all to me and your solution makes ram even worse of a choice in situation where you don't have that one or two doctrines with offmaps to support it.

Therefore, as I have said, the ram should NOT disable T34 if it was to cost anything or, if it penetrates, it should disable opposing tank the same way it disables T34.

If offmap is too strong with it, again, reduce potency and cost of the offmap in question, don't break the ability for ALL of situations just because of one.

At the time, T34 was also even cheaper then it is now, below 300mp and at 80 fuel.

Its already too expensive to use it against mediums in situations other then certain loss.

Why do you want to nerf already extremely underused and niche ability, because it has too good synergy with off-map that instead could lose potency and cost instead is beyond my comprehension.

Using it already costs you a tank, unless you're in really favorable position to recover it and you rarely are if you need to use it, paying additional cost to lose a tank doesn't seem like a sane solution at all to me and your solution makes ram even worse of a choice in situation where you don't have that one or two doctrines with offmaps to support it.

Therefore, as I have said, the ram should NOT disable T34 if it was to cost anything or, if it penetrates, it should disable opposing tank the same way it disables T34.

If offmap is too strong with it, again, reduce potency and cost of the offmap in question, don't break the ability for ALL of situations just because of one.

I understand your point, but presenting it as the only way to go does not make sense.

Both abilities (IL-2 and ram) by themselves are pretty much fine. But nerfing the synergy in this context is very hard, so if the community/balance team agrees that this issue is too big to just let it go, then one of the abilities must be changed.

You say don't change ram because it would affect the ability outside of the combo. That is perfectly true. But please explain how doing it the other way around does not affect the bomb/strafe run outside of the ram combo? The IL-2 bombs are also used on static emplacements and buildings, the strafe can be used against all other tanks as well. Nerfing them would cause other issues.
Your suggestion is not better, it is just different, so you should present it that way. Ram is an ability the T34 can basically live without. If it's too expensive vs some units, then don't use it against them, simple as that. The T34 has other issues than underperforming ram. That's why I say change ram, not the offmaps. Because the effect on the rest of the gameplay is lower.

Yes, my suggestions are a straight nerf to ram. That's why I also proposed a buff to the secure mode to at least keep the T34's utility in a normal state.

I'm fine with IL-2 bombing run as its significantly more costly and arrives slower, making it useful only against super heavies and only on smaller maps.

Ram+bombing was never an issue and there was never any kind of large scale complains about it because of the costs and time involved.

Its literally just the rocket strike that's too effective.

Only alternative is, if the ability as you(rightfully) point out, is one a unit can live without, then just replace it with something that would be useful in the context of the unit, but ram itself, once it no longer was 100% immobilization with gun destroyed on opponent, was never an issue these last 5 years, it only "became an issue" because of one, single ability.

To me, natural and logical course of action is to address the ability that's causing the issue, not the one that, clearly, wasn't complained about last half a decade.

T34 itself is much better tank then it was back then, sacrificing it is no longer no brainer and soviets aren't exactly the muni floating faction they were years ago.

I wonder if a similar solution to the Brit snipers Aimed Shot could work meaning that the quality of the crit would be determined by the unit type it is used against. That way the damage the T34 receives could also be adjusted in a fairer way.

For example - off the top of my head - ramming an ultra light vehicle like the Kubel (while making the best trade deals) could only cause a stun to the T34 while ramming a medium tank would cause both tanks to receive engine damage (then both tanks have a chance to retreat and mediums aren't as prone to one clicks)

Ramming a Heavy could then be adjusted to give a different tactical advantage instead of just mutually assured unit deletion. For example the Brit snipers jam the main gun of Heavy tanks for quite a long while - if similar crits would be applied to ram then ramming a Heavy wouldn't be a death sentence to the tank in question but instead severely reduce its DPS in a fight / require Axis players to micro the Heavy more to keep the jammed turret pointing at the enemy.

This solution would bring consistency to the ability and limit the deadly synergy Ram and off-maps currently have. It would also encourage Soviet players to use ram in more creative ways hopefully - for example choosing to reduce the DPS of the Axis heavy or harassing the mediums/premiums supporting it. The reduced disparity between risk/reward could then be used to justify lesser penalties to the T34 as well.

I wonder if a similar solution to the Brit snipers Aimed Shot could work meaning that the quality of the crit would be determined by the unit type it is used against. That way the damage the T34 receives could also be adjusted in a fairer way.

For example - off the top of my head - ramming an ultra light vehicle like the Kubel (while making the best trade deals) could only cause a stun to the T34 while ramming a medium tank would cause both tanks to receive engine damage (then both tanks have a chance to retreat and mediums aren't as prone to one clicks)

Ramming a Heavy could then be adjusted to give a different tactical advantage instead of just mutually assured unit deletion. For example the Brit snipers jam the main gun of Heavy tanks for quite a long while - if similar crits would be applied to ram then ramming a Heavy wouldn't be a death sentence to the tank in question but instead severely reduce its DPS in a fight / require Axis players to micro the Heavy more to keep the jammed turret pointing at the enemy.

This solution would bring consistency to the ability and limit the deadly synergy Ram and off-maps currently have. It would also encourage Soviet players to use ram in more creative ways hopefully - for example choosing to reduce the DPS of the Axis heavy or harassing the mediums/premiums supporting it. The reduced disparity between risk/reward could then be used to justify lesser penalties to the T34 as well.

Your nickname made it all.

I dont want to have a ability that will cost you the vehicle have a vet or muni requirement/ cost on top of the vehicle itself. It does not make sense.
Unless the target is left in a simaler state as the t34 when hit by ram. Then i can understand such costs. But that is impossible because that would make the combi with off maps even more powerfull.

People comparing this to a one click ability i dont understand. Its just strange logic. Wich one click costs you a unit and needs follow up to kill a target? Name one.

Ram plus x off map is a great cost no matter how you spin and twist it. Ram is 100% dead t34.. 300 mp and 90 fuel... If the off map is only 100 muni it should be made more expensive or as some one sugested make it so that the il 2 needs to be activated before the ram. So their is a reasonable chance to save the vehicle.

Also to my knowlidge and experience mud and deep snow cancels/slows ram. Though they removed most odlf that terrain from the maps.

It's 10 times sillier to pretend that the T34-76 is just a long range super fast nearly-unblockable snare with a guaranteed long-duration stun even on full health units. And even if it were, the fact that it's able to guarantee kills on tanks which cost 250% the price is kinda a big problem.

1) Faust doesn't stop ram.
2) Faust doesn't trigger when a tank is at full health.
3) Faust only has 15 range. Ram can start from easily triple that range.
4) Faust also takes a long time to load and fire. Even if you start the faust the moment the t34 starts its ram, the T34-76 can still ram the target before faust hits.
5) You seem to have no idea how insanely fast a ram can take place. Once you hear the engine whirl it's like 2 seconds to impact.

There's like a billion things wrong with your imaginary example of android-like players landing a hit on the T34 AND landing a faust on it BEFORE the T34-76 even starts its ram. You somehow think that asking for superhuman levels of micro and reaction JUST to counter a sloppily executed attack by a rank 5000 player is reasonable. I'd like to see you dodge a ram with a Jagdtiger against anyone reasonably within your skill bracket. I'll bet a thousand bucks you can't even do it 20% of the time. I can't even dodge rams 20% of the time with a Tiger against weaker opponents.

When the rank no. 4 Soviet tells you it's a problem there's a pretty good chance that your "just use a panzerfaust LUL" comments are utter rubbish that have no relevance to an actually competitive game.

See the issue is you keep trying to stop it when it has already begun. Try stopping it BEFORE. You can do this by spotting for your tank (as in not having it the front line unit) and having literally any for of AT nearby and a snare nearby. These are super simply things you should be doing ANYWAYS but doing these now will help prevent ram. You only need 1 hit to get the t34 in snare levels.

I dont want to have a ability that will cost you the vehicle have a vet or muni requirement/ cost on top of the vehicle itself. It does not make sense.
Unless the target is left in a simaler state as the t34 when hit by ram. Then i can understand such costs. But that is impossible because that would make the combi with off maps even more powerfull.

People comparing this to a one click ability i dont understand. Its just strange logic. Wich one click costs you a unit and needs follow up to kill a target? Name one.

Ram plus x off map is a great cost no matter how you spin and twist it. Ram is 100% dead t34.. 300 mp and 90 fuel... If the off map is only 100 muni it should be made more expensive or as some one sugested make it so that the il 2 needs to be activated before the ram. So their is a reasonable chance to save the vehicle.

Also to my knowlidge and experience mud and deep snow cancels/slows ram. Though they removed most odlf that terrain from the maps.

U just dont get it or ?

its in a VERY STRONG doctrin

it take 0 risk

U can trade ur T34 with already does alot dmg to inf earlier ... for an axis heavy !
its like "here is an ability that puts an 88 on a 222" just for 200mun.

and thats not all. The doctrin u pick to counter the ISU has this combo... which counters his counter

Think of a immobilisation shot on the Stug ... just to ALWAYS Stuka it into dust with 0%chance to counter it.

Boy, do I have a surprise for you, because my best was 42 in 2v2.
As axis.

show a replay from u which isnt older than 1year.

See the issue is you keep trying to stop it when it has already begun. Try stopping it BEFORE.

NASA called, they need you to help them invent interstellar travel. They can't do it alone. Hurry!