Stormtroopers 5th man at vet3?
29 Feb 2020, 00:17 AM
#1
Posts: 3053
I was just thinking about this today and IMO it'd be cool if stormtroopers got a 5th man at vet3. That'd put them much more in line with commandos and make them a lot better lategame, and IMO they'd be fine powerlevel-wise since allies tend to have better mid-close DPS anyway as a whole and tac assault is a huge risk/reward mechanic. They also don't get first strike bonuses compared to commandos.
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29 Feb 2020, 00:26 AM
#2
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Oh god no
No proper infantry unit should get extra men with vet, and that includes the new Brit officer unit which is abhorrent (as always with Brits).
No proper infantry unit should get extra men with vet, and that includes the new Brit officer unit which is abhorrent (as always with Brits).
29 Feb 2020, 01:48 AM
#3
Posts: 960
Oh god no
No proper infantry unit should get extra men with vet, and that includes the new Brit officer unit which is abhorrent (as always with Brits).
Have to agree with this. Adding a model via vet is just a nightmare to balance; you're adding 20% more HP and DPS (in the case of 4->5 models) that also scales on other vet bonuses. There's also the issue of weapon slots.
If a unit (storms, in this case) needs more HP, or DPS, just give the unit RA/DR and DPS buffs.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
1 Mar 2020, 06:47 AM
#4
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedEither give it a better weapon profile at vet3 so that the midrange is better or give it an extra second of camo when out of cover.
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1 Mar 2020, 08:46 AM
#5
Posts: 783
I'd be ok with adding first strike bonus at vet 3 but a fifth man seems pretty drastic to me.
1 Mar 2020, 09:33 AM
#6
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Having the unit start with 5 entities and adjust DPS. 4 men smg units are problematic.
2 Mar 2020, 04:48 AM
#7
Posts: 783
Having the unit start with 5 entities and adjust DPS. 4 men smg units are problematic.
If they also get a compensating nerf to recieved accuracy in exchange for the 25% increase in HP ok.
I'd say they are problematic depending on role. For a frontal assault unit, low durability is an issue. A 4 man shock squad would be crap.
For an ambush unit, durability is less of a concern.
2 Mar 2020, 06:29 AM
#8
Posts: 498
Storms are fine as they are. If a change is needed, then I would replace 1-2 of their weapons with Sturmpio Stg 44s (similar damage at close, but longer effective range) with veterancy, somewhat bringing back the old storms. But again, it's not necessary, they fulfill their close range ambush and supply chain breaker role fine, plus they can get AT too.
2 Mar 2020, 08:18 AM
#9
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
If they also get a compensating nerf to recieved accuracy in exchange for the 25% increase in HP ok.
I'd say they are problematic depending on role. For a frontal assault unit, low durability is an issue. A 4 man shock squad would be crap.
For an ambush unit, durability is less of a concern.
The problem is not only durability, it also DPS drop off which is very big for storm troopers.
Commandos thou not only have 5 entities they also get smoke grenade on retreat for extra durability....
2 Mar 2020, 08:20 AM
#10
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
The problem is not only durability, it also DPS drop off which is very big for storm troopers.
Its a CQC ambush unit with camo.
It choses when you engage, not opponent, therefore DPS dropoff is irrelevant, its L2P problem if they don't engage at their optimum distance.
Commandos thou not only have 5 entities they also get smoke grenade on retreat for extra durability....
Different armies, different units.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Mar 2020, 08:50 AM
#11
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Its a CQC ambush unit with camo.
It choses when you engage, not opponent, therefore DPS dropoff is irrelevant, its L2P problem if they don't engage at their optimum distance.
DPS drop off is an issue regardless of unit's role or the range it engages.
Commandos are CQB "ambush unit with camo" and they still get 5 entities and less DPS drop off.
Different armies, different units.
Similar role units.
2 Mar 2020, 08:58 AM
#12
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
DPS drop off is an issue regardless of unit role.
Commandos are CQB "ambush unit with camo" and they still get 5 entities.
That's because commandos go against armies with weapons designed to kill 5 and 6 model squads and storms go against armies with weapons designed to kill mostly 4 man squads and have a singular examples of 5 and 6?
There is no issue here.
Same role unit.
So are conscripts and osttruppen.
Or grens and tommies.
Or shermans and P4s.
Or HMG42 and maxims.
Or obers and LMG paras.
Or M15 and 251 flak.
Or kubel and M3.
Or Tiger and IS-2.
Or B4 and LEFH.
Yet they still perform vastly different and have their own unique advantages and disadvantages.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Mar 2020, 09:01 AM
#13
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
That's because commandos go against armies with weapons designed to kill 5 and 6 model squads and storms go against armies with weapons designed to kill mostly 4 man squads and have a singular examples of 5 and 6?
There are no small arm weapons specifically designed to kill 5 or 6 models....
There is no issue here.
Yes there is
So are conscripts and osttruppen.
Or grens and tommies.
Or shermans and P4s.
Or HMG42 and maxims.
Or obers and LMG paras.
Or M15 and 251 flak.
Or kubel and M3.
Or Tiger and IS-2.
Yet they still perform vastly different and have their own unique advantages and disadvantages.
Another derail attempt with issue completely irrelevant to storm troopers.
2 Mar 2020, 09:06 AM
#14
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
There are no small arm weapons specifically designed to kill 5 or 6 models....
No, the whole factions are balanced like that.
Unless for some mad reason you think armies are not balanced against units they are fighting against.
Yes there is
Source: Trust me bro.
Another derail attempt with issue completely irrelevant to storm troopers.
"I do not have a way to respond to this argument, therefore it must be a derail attempt or personal attack, probably both".
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Mar 2020, 09:24 AM
#15
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Having the unit start with 5 entities and adjust DPS. 4 men smg units are problematic.
Then they should spawn with 3 men then like infiltration commandos
Personally I'd prefer they stay as is. They're definitely fragile but still really good imo
2 Mar 2020, 09:26 AM
#16
Posts: 203
Similar role units.
Similar, not same. You have 2 different units with 2 different sets of abilities
Commandoes can (reasonably) double down as UKFs frontline assault unit
Stormtroopers are more focused as behind enemy lines capping/cache destroying ambush units
They can spawn behind enemy lines for one (and infiltration commmandos start at 3 models) without a big glider pointing where they are.
You can't spell "Power Creep" without REEEEE.
2 Mar 2020, 09:42 AM
#17
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Then they should spawn with 3 men then like infiltration commandos
Personally I'd prefer they stay as is. They're definitely fragile but still really good imo
The 3 men spawn of Infiltration commandos was used as bandaid solution since the mod team decided against giving them Enfield due to the synergy with elite brens.
For storm trooper they went of another solution that has start with "basic" rifles.
If ST followed the same "solution" as infiltration commandos they should spawn with entities and SMG and be able to reinforce to 5. And that brings me us to my point.
ST should have 5 entities available to them from start.
2 Mar 2020, 09:45 AM
#18
Posts: 785
Could try an upgrade granting an extra man: "Expert Infiltration" or something. Maybe 60-70 munitions and also replace the incendiary grenade with a M24. Locks out G43s and Panzershrek. Wouldn't hurt to have it eat up weapon slots in general.
2 Mar 2020, 11:12 AM
#19
Posts: 5279
Have to agree with this. Adding a model via vet is just a nightmare to balance; you're adding 20% more HP and DPS (in the case of 4->5 models) that also scales on other vet bonuses. There's also the issue of weapon slots.
If a unit (storms, in this case) needs more HP, or DPS, just give the unit RA/DR and DPS buffs.
*25% more
Also this is why it should totally be a 1 time global purchase! Much easier to balance with all your infantry getting 25% better all at once with no drawbacks! /s
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