COH2 winter balance mod - discussion
4 Feb 2020, 19:49 PM
#661
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Vanguard is indeed very OP atm. I personally think either the Croc or the air supremacy needs to be replaced.
4 Feb 2020, 19:56 PM
#662
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
1. Glider cannot cost the same as Commando Regiment Glider. Why? Becouse this one allow you also to recruit a commando squad, give healing and FRP.
2. Glider has to be more diversed compare to Commando Regiment version.
The Commando Glider Insertion will probably get merged with the Forward Logistics Glider. I.e., they will become the same ability where a Commando squad can be called in by glider for 390mp and then an additional upgrade will unlock the FHQ abilities.
The split was done so that Commandos become easier to get, so that players who don't want the FHQ stuff don't have to pay a premium just to get the squad. And so that players who do want the FHQ don't get bundle that's too cheap (as was the case in v1).
Will see if its possible to make the glider repairable.
4 Feb 2020, 20:08 PM
#663
Posts: 626 | Subs: 1
The Commando Glider Insertion will probably get merged with the Forward Logistics Glider. I.e., they will become the same ability where a Commando squad can be called in by glider for 390mp and then an additional upgrade will unlock the FHQ abilities.
The split was done so that Commandos become easier to get, so that players who don't want the FHQ stuff don't have to pay a premium just to get the squad. And so that players who do want the FHQ don't get bundle that's too cheap.
Will see if its possible to make the glider repairable.
Yeah, i figured that you are thinking about it. And ok, if we compare only those two abilities i would be all for it but sadly we cannot compare only those two abilities but commanders that they bring with it.
And honestly i don't like the idea of vanguard commander having soo much stuff inside that easily overshadow any other commander - especially commando regiment. You put a lot of efort to revamp it and you gonna ruin it by making another commander better version of it.
Don't take me wrong - Glider HQ should stay but it shouldn't bring a free commando squad with it. As i wrote before: add a diffrent unit or allow glider to call-in a diffrent units. Tank hunter squad, recon section, mortar, mg etc.
Let's just think what can happen if we leave it in current form.
4 Feb 2020, 21:23 PM
#664
Posts: 211
Tech Changes
Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:
Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
Support Armour Korp (T3) no longer has a fuel cost
Heavy Panzer Korp (T4) building no longer has a fuel cost
XP values have been adjusted accordingly.
Credit to Derbyhat AKA Jibberjabber for originally proposing this change.
Grenadiers
Reinforce cost from 30 to 28
Imo this is the epitome of power creep.
1) Continuing to buff grenadier instead of nerfing other units that already have been overbuffed.
2) Making Ostheer tech cheaper instead of nerfing the units that make T4 unit mediocre.
The approach so far is to make more powerful unit earlier which in return force unit with limited window of opportunity to be buffed so they become worth the investment or become obsolete.
Imo it time to decide what is the desire time frame for is stage of the game:
infatry phase
Lv phase
Medium tank phase
Post medium, end tech phase
and stick to that timing.
For once I agree with Vipper
The facts: Gren openings are underutilized in the ost arsenal because of decisions like: Buffing Rifleman or Assault Grens into Panzer gren mechanized being so viable.
Issue: You aren't tackling the issue of Assault Grens and Panzer Gren timings but instead stright up decreasing the opportunity costs of getting Grens. Bleed works through out the game therefore the change is a stirhgt up manpower increase through the mid and late game. This is for a faction that never had troubles with manpower but instead munitions.
This might just be me speculating but I have some theory of an idea that this is changing is because Sections are getting buffed back up a bit and Grens only trade well vs sections when sections are out of cover. Therefore in order to decrease the bleed difference between a simular model count unit they decided to decrease the total reinforce cost from 90 down to 84 just like sections. Sections Alpha cost stay expensive because of bolster.
Another issue: T4 fuel decrease and Brumbar armor buff without taking into account 20% armor bonus at vet 2.
As a result of this change T3 comes slightly slower while T4 comes faster. T4 has become Cheaper and the units more powerful. I feel like this should be done one at a time not both. THis can almost be compared to making the KT arrive faster but with higher performance as well.
This might still won't matter cause tiger still does both A.I (brumbar) and A.T (panther) and still won't the manpower cost of building the T4 building. A possible solution is combining the manpower cost of T4 into the teching cost and making the building essentially "free" That way Tiger won't be out of the T4 roster entirely.
Pak changes might be kind of nice thou. Easier tracking on T70 sign me up.
4 Feb 2020, 21:36 PM
#665
Posts: 789
Mod Team think about this
Non doc ELE. Now Let's not loose our marbles. First Listen.
When Jager Armor or Fortified Armor(or Festung?? both mean the same) is selected the ELE gets a 150 muni upgrade called "Enhanced engineering" or something
This actually happened IRL
The original tanks were called Ferdinand, and then the Germans gave it more armour and a hull MG and renamed it the elephant
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
4 Feb 2020, 21:48 PM
#666
Posts: 1563
kinda where the inspiration came from
This actually happened IRL
The original tanks were called Ferdinand, and then the Germans gave it more armour and a hull MG and renamed it the elephant
4 Feb 2020, 22:19 PM
#667
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
The facts: Gren openings are underutilized in the ost arsenal because of decisions like: Buffing Rifleman or Assault Grens into Panzer gren mechanized being so viable. Uhhhh no, they're underutilized because of munitions. You need 60 muni on a Gren squad to bring it up to Pgren level, which starves you for munitions which you need for rifle grenades, fausts, med bunker and teller mines.
Issue: You aren't tackling the issue of Assault Grens and Panzer Gren timings but instead stright up decreasing the opportunity costs of getting Grens. Bleed works through out the game therefore the change is a stirhgt up manpower increase through the mid and late game. This is for a faction that never had troubles with manpower but instead munitions. There is no issue of Assgren and Panzergrenadier timings. Grenadiers are just becoming a bit more cost efficient which is good since everything around them is so much stronger with buffed Sections, buffed Riflemen and 7man cons.
Another issue: T4 fuel decrease and Brumbar armor buff without taking into account 20% armor bonus at vet 2. They did take the 20% armour bonus into account. The Brummbar is a heavy assault gun with bad mobility and bad range. It finally has actual armour to do its job, so hopefully it's viable again.
As a result of this change T3 comes slightly slower while T4 comes faster. T4 has become Cheaper and the units more powerful. I feel like this should be done one at a time not both. THis can almost be compared to making the KT arrive faster but with higher performance as well. Brummbar was dead and 15 fuel faster T4 isn't that dramatic. A strawman argument with the KT comparison doesn't convince anyone.
This might still won't matter cause tiger still does both A.I (brumbar) and A.T (panther) and still won't the manpower cost of building the T4 building. A possible solution is combining the manpower cost of T4 into the teching cost and making the building essentially "free" That way Tiger won't be out of the T4 roster entirely. Or all heavy tanks could be nerfed to a balanced power level. Ostheer T4 is a specialist tier, with the Brummbar being an AI assault specialist, the Panther a heavy AT specialist and the Panzerwerfer an anti-weapons teams specialist. The Tiger is a heavy generalist and if it overshadows the entire specialist tier that's because it's overtuned as with all heavies and needs to be nerfed.
4 Feb 2020, 23:05 PM
#668
Posts: 211
Uhhhh no, they're underutilized because of munitions. You need 60 muni on a Gren squad to bring it up to Pgren level, which starves you for munitions which you need for rifle grenades, fausts, med bunker and teller mines.
Yep, Grens have more investment costs associated with them. Which I covered in the second part of my post. Fundamentally Ass Grens into Panzer Grens requires less munition usage which opens up other tatical opportuinities such as Tellers, Meics, Shreks, Nades, Etc. Ass Grens into Panzer Grens also has the benefit of allowing skipped tiers and etc. All those reasons make Ass Grens and Panzer Grens much more viable than a standard Gren start from a lower level even up until rank 160ish. I'm not saying low levels are what we should balance this game around, this is just something I've observed.
There is no issue of Assgren and Panzergrenadier timings. Grenadiers are just becoming a bit more cost efficient which is good since everything around them is so much stronger with buffed Sections, buffed Riflemen and 7man cons.
As I also explained in my theory section, Grens are most likely becoming more cost efficent because of sections and also in my first paragph: "Buffing Rifleman". So yes Grens powercreeping up is a result of those things. Although I also believe grens are better model to model wise than most mainlines. Another point is that OST never had a problem with manpower but rather munitions like the both of us pointed out. Issue of timing depends on person to person but OST has generally better timing of stuff than other factions even if their unit performance might not be as good. For example Mg42 is the first MG of the game, 222 and flamer halftrack are the first true LV of the game, P4 timing has always been solid.
They did take the 20% armour bonus into account. The Brummbar is a heavy assault gun with bad mobility and bad range. It finally has actual armour to do its job, so hopefully it's viable again.
This is exactly the reason TD pen amounts won't be coming down. It's because the direction the game is going is more armor requiring more pen for reliable damage. IMO viability of the Brumbar is bad is because of the profiliation of tigers in doctrines and the heavy tank meta of last patch. Tiger can do what Brumbar does and more.
Brummbar was dead and 15 fuel faster T4 isn't that dramatic. A strawman argument with the KT comparison doesn't convince anyone.
Nope, not a strawman because that's exactly what happened to Heavy tanks last patch. Cp requirement down, Performance up. I compared the Brumbar with the KT because both are kind of noob traps in their current iteration. Oh and 15 fuel faster is pretty dramatic, any fuel decrease leads to better timing, requiring less fuel control, etc.
Or all heavy tanks could be nerfed to a balanced power level. Ostheer T4 is a specialist tier, with the Brummbar being an AI assault specialist, the Panther a heavy AT specialist and the Panzerwerfer an anti-weapons teams specialist. The Tiger is a heavy generalist and if it overshadows the entire specialist tier that's because it's overtuned as with all heavies and needs to be nerfed.
Well different ideas are welcomed but it seems as if you're putting my idea down and raising your idea as the superior opinion. I would like to play around with T4 as well but it's just not viable even with this case because the simply haven't eliminated opportunity cost from getting the Tiger vs getting T4. There's still a manpower cost associated with getting the T4 building over the TIger making the very first Brumbar cost almost as much to get in terms of manpower as the tiger which is absolute bs.
My suggest will attempt to eliminate that opportunity cost: you pay more in the end for getting the Tiger but absolutely the same for T4. All you have to do is to add the manpower cost associated with the T4 building to the Battle Phase upgrade.
4 Feb 2020, 23:20 PM
#669
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
This is exactly the reason TD pen amounts won't be coming down. It's because the direction the game is going is more armor requiring more pen for reliable damage. IMO viability of the Brumbar is bad is because of the profiliation of tigers in doctrines and the heavy tank meta of last patch. Tiger can do what Brumbar does and more. In actuality I don’t want TD penetration values to go down, I actually want them to go up with less rate of fire, so that medium TDs can all specialize in the Firefly mold of high pen low rate of fire, which opens up the field for medium tank play.
Nope, not a strawman because that's exactly what happened to Heavy tanks last patch. Cp requirement down, Performance up. Yeah but that failed pretty dramatically and the game has been suffering from the heavy tanks meta since the AoE and scatter adjustments. Performance has to go down or at the very least their counters need to be buffed.
5 Feb 2020, 01:14 AM
#670
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Heavy tank changes
- Good changes overall, testing would have to show if the timing delays are enough to make heavies less prominent. Reducing the AoE would be the logical next thing to look at. Especially the Tiger and Pershing just delete squads too quickly with their large splash damage and fast reload.
- IS2 armor nerf was kinda necessary. I thought it was just me having trouble against the IS2 at first, but WCS also showed its armor to be a bit too decisive. In the lategame it's mostly the armor above 200 that matters and the IS2 has allot of it.
- Testing should show if a (smaller) timing delay is necessary for the Crocodile. Don’t think it is, because its AT performance obviously lacks behind that of other heavies.
- Recharge timer should also be applied to the Valentine.
UKF changes
- Good changes for Sections. They become less punishing to use while performance in ideal situations remains the same. 0,9 RA out of cover made Sections especially vulnerable when retreating from chasing vehicles or when repositioning.
- Smoke Barrage could be an issue for Ostheer's MG play when combined with the massive Pyro sight and the new Assault Officer with elite Stens and "On Me!" I really feel the extra Pyro sight should be removed as has been suggested by others.
- Assault Infantry Sections are basically Assault Engineers now. Starting with 5 men is an interesting change. Might see build orders emerging that are similar to Assault Grenadiers into 250 into fast Ostwind, considering Bolster is not really necessary with Lend Lease now. Such a build sounds interesting on paper, considering UKF has an affordable tech route towards the Centaur/Cromwell, so I wonder how it would play out in-game.
- I love the addition of an Assault Officer to UKF. This sounds like just what they need to make them less static and provide a different playstyle without requiring a doctrine.
- 390 manpower for Commando’s + recruiting/reinforcing sounds reasonable. I also liked the idea of going a different route with the HQ glider to further distinguish the doctrine from Commando doctrine.
Soviet changes
- Improved individual performance, cheaper reinforcement cost and higher survivability just made 7 men Conscripts too efficient, even for a late upgrade. Reload reduction was the least significant bonus, so I’m interested in seeing their new performance after its removal.
- Change to Airborne Guards seem good, never seen anyone pick PPSH’s with them. Will be scary to see +50% the dps of Shocks on a retreat path. Ideally, Airborne Guards should be redesigned to be more of a specialist unit, like Vipper suggested. They do suffer from identity crisis. I’d especially like to see the option of elite Zooks for them, which would also the rocket strafe to be toned down a bit.
USF changes
- Rather see the Airdropped Combat Group changed to not include the cancerous Pak Howi and just drop an Airborne squad with either some weapon or munition crates.
OKW changes
- Don’t know if a fuel reduction for the Jagdtiger is enough. I know Orangepest made the JT worth it by letting it snipe infantry when not engaging tanks, which is not possible anymore since the AoE reduction (except if you’re spamming the barrage ability). If its AoE got restored it could be slightly better substitute to powerful generalists like the Tiger and King Tiger.
- The IRHT doesn’t seem worth it on paper. I back the suggestion of this unit gaining shared veterancy with low requirements to reward actively using it as support on the frontlines. Veterancy bonusses could include vision and detection range increases for example. Giving it some ability to “mark” enemy units to increase their target size and/or apply tracking effect could also be an option.
Ostheer changes
- Subtle but solid changes. The reinforcement cost reduction of Grenadiers will help with managing bleed. I feel like I often have to retreat from winnable engagements with Grenadiers because the manpower trade would be in favor of the Allies. It’s also common to struggle for manpower in base because you have to get out a Pak or 222 to prepare for a light vehicle or retake ground while your Grenadiers are waiting for reinforcements at base.
- The Brummbar lost one of its three weaknesses. It will now likely be durable enough again to face AT guns head-on once it reaches vet 2. Honestly the Ostwind should be toned down a bit and priced to 90 fuel to separate the two vehicles further.
The tech changes will help to make T4 a solid option again once heavies aren’t as prolific anymore, but it has the side effect of further undermining the teching position of the Puma and Stug E. I suggest changing those units accordingly.
The BP2 requirement simply doesn’t fit the Puma and a simple way to fix this would be as follows:
- Panzer Tactician changed to Stuka Smoke Drop in Mobile Defense
- Puma turned into a 5 CP call-in
This reduces the synergy between the FHT and Puma and the doctrine doesn’t have the CP4 follow-up like in the old days. If the Puma still proves too potent, it could have its smoke pots removed and/or be limited to 1 like the Valentine.
Meanwhile the Stug E could do with some changes to justify its teching cost:
- The option to upgrade a pintle
- The ability to fire a smoke barrage like the Scott
Currently the Stug E is good as a cheap meatshield and distraction, but it’s performance against both infantry and vehicles is subpar. A pintle would stop it from getting bullied by infantry which easily avoid its slow projectile. Smoke would give it role besides slowly bleeding the enemy, it would allow blanking out AT guns so your other tanks can attack and help infantry against MG’s.
5 Feb 2020, 06:58 AM
#671
Posts: 772
I think the Airborne soviet Rocket Strafe needs a small delay or ~20% damage nerf. In 1v1 this ability is extremely cheesy.
The Muni increase seems logical, since soviets already have 3 PPSh upgrade for 45 munies (15 muni per gun) and currently you can get 4 PPSh for 40 munies (10 muni per gun) with airborne (typical soviet nepotism in action
).
I wish this ability was locked behind 2 CP like the conscript PPSh counterpart (or later ones buffed to 1CP for consistency).
The Muni increase seems logical, since soviets already have 3 PPSh upgrade for 45 munies (15 muni per gun) and currently you can get 4 PPSh for 40 munies (10 muni per gun) with airborne (typical soviet nepotism in action
).I wish this ability was locked behind 2 CP like the conscript PPSh counterpart (or later ones buffed to 1CP for consistency).
5 Feb 2020, 07:20 AM
#672
Posts: 281
I think the Airborne soviet Rocket Strafe needs a small delay or ~20% damage nerf. In 1v1 this ability is extremely cheesy.
The Muni increase seems logical, since soviets already have 3 PPSh upgrade for 45 munies (15 muni per gun) and currently you can get 4 PPSh for 40 munies (10 muni per gun) with airborne (typical soviet nepotism in action
I wish this ability was locked behind 2 CP like the conscript PPSh counterpart (or later ones buffed to 1CP for consistency).
IMO delay can be added if it starts damaging more than vehicles. To use it is interesting and exciting. Basically a gamble just like the b4.
Airdrop is going at 60 ammo so it will fix early game power. Airborne only gets ppsh on penals with the weapon drop and i think ppsh penals are effective only in the early game because they have no body armor like shocks and no smoke either.
5 Feb 2020, 12:16 PM
#673
Posts: 626 | Subs: 1
- Good changes overall, testing would have to show if the timing delays are enough to make heavies less prominent. Reducing the AoE would be the logical next thing to look at. Especially the Tiger and Pershing just delete squads too quickly with their large splash damage and fast reload.
I just wanna point out that last Heavy tank buff was becouse no1 ever used them. Therefore BalanceTeam increase it AoE and reduce timing. If we now nerf both timing and AoE we will end up with scenario from 6 months ago.
5 Feb 2020, 12:28 PM
#674
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Well, Sander said most heavies come around 14 CP (I think it was 14) according to his research.
So if the CP increase barely reduces the prominence of heavies, AoE would be the next safest change because it would affect the dynamics between heavies the least (nerfing reload on Tiger would also reduce its performance against vehicles for example). It wouldn't have to be a huge reduction in AoE.
So if the CP increase barely reduces the prominence of heavies, AoE would be the next safest change because it would affect the dynamics between heavies the least (nerfing reload on Tiger would also reduce its performance against vehicles for example). It wouldn't have to be a huge reduction in AoE.
5 Feb 2020, 12:30 PM
#675
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I just wanna point out that last Heavy tank buff was becouse no1 ever used them. Therefore BalanceTeam increase it AoE and reduce timing. If we now nerf both timing and AoE we will end up with scenario from 6 months ago.
Not if we nerf the TDs.
5 Feb 2020, 12:43 PM
#676
Posts: 498
*Snip about commando and HQ glider being potentially merged.*
Even if that happens, it might worth keeping them use the color (green or beige) corresponding to their doctrine, to help enemy players identify which doctrine said player have chosen. Previously if you saw the Airlanding Officer or the beige colored glider, then you knew you might meet a Crocodile eventually. Now only the glider's color can tell them apart if no other abilities are being used in the meanwhile.
5 Feb 2020, 12:48 PM
#677
Posts: 1220
Not if we nurf the TDs !!1
I wonder how many times u said that.
Just drop this whole "I'm angry at the world" routine cause it's getting very old.
5 Feb 2020, 12:55 PM
#678
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I wonder how many times u said that.
Just drop this whole "I'm angry at the world" routine cause it's getting very old.
Basic rules of posting:
If you quote something you do not alter the text. If you do add or subtract something you make sure that is clear which past is the original and what you have modified.
5 Feb 2020, 13:02 PM
#679
Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2
Just an idea, Brace for british emplacements costs munition but lasts a bit longer and can still fire but at a lower rate, say 50% ? The munition cost doesn't need to be expensive, but investing munitions into bracing your emplacement makes it still viable. Thoughts?
5 Feb 2020, 13:04 PM
#680
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Just an idea, Brace for british emplacements costs munition but lasts a bit longer and can still fire but at a lower rate, say 50% ? The munition cost doesn't need to be expensive, but investing munitions into bracing your emplacement makes it still viable. Thoughts?
Makes as much sense as slapping muni cost on retreat button for infantry.
Was also discussed to death couple of years ago.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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