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Stationary PANTHER - Poll

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Mazianni
26 Nov 2019, 02:55 AM
#41
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 02:38 AMmrgame2
Reducing 55td does not nerf them much against call in. Especially if we increase the call in fuel cost.

55td still have enough time to vet up, and still get their sweet vet bonuses


55td still outrange call in and non call in.

Su85 and ff have sight advantage too. Jackson of course mobility power. And making 5muni cheaper tracking will compensate the su85 non turret with slightly reduced range.

People make a fuss of pioneer extra 7 sight, yet mobile td have extra 10 range advantage, and at 640 hp, they are no longer squishy.

Panthers didn't kill medium plays, 60td did, imo


Outrange by 5 range, sure.

Tell you what, if the Panther loses range too, staying lesser than dedicated TDs, and the fuel price increases to heavies are considerable enough, I'd be willing to give that particular balance theory a go.

But of course I doubt you would agree to such a thing because, again, your whole mantra is that the Panther is made utterly useless somehow by the existence of 60 range TDs.

But on the topic of Panthers not killing medium plays, you are completely and totally wrong, since as has been demonstrated many times already, allied medium tanks cannot fight the Panther. You will get lucky on occasion and kill a Jackson with a Panzer IV. It is virtually guaranteed to penetrate it with every shot and will fire generally as fast. You can flank SU-85s with a Panzer IV and thusly kill them easily. You can outposition a firefly and light it up with minimal risk due to it's far slower ROF.

You can not, however, do any of these things against a Panther. Medium tanks can not penetrate it reliably, and can not win any sort of DPS or HP trade. You are required at absolute minimum to outnumber the Panther in terms of armor or support or both, essentially requiring you isolate it completely from Axis infantry given it can otherwise easily tank salvos of non-TD fire. The existence of a Panther on the field straight up necessitates an allied TD because no other unit will be able to counter it properly, period.

I mean, you are welcome to play a few games as allies and just never ever produce any 60 range TDs. I implore you to do so and to show us the results of this endeavor.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 02:49 AMmrgame2
I believe the chance to pen a tiger with 60td is higher than a panther can pen a is2. Dropping to 55td won't make a losing impact

60td is simply unneeded and spoil the contest to laziness.

A pioneer needs to WALK to provide sight to mg42, a 60td simply drives about.

A 60td Jackson can 1v1 a costlier panther. The 10 range deficit is too much to take a chance since jackson can dive in an out of panther AND ATgun range. At 55td, at least allies td will have to reconsider the ATg more.


I want to see you try and kill Panthers and Tigers with only the M1 AT gun or the Zis-3 so fucking badly. Do you just assume every gun in the game is a copy of your Pak-40? TWP and all?

Alternatively, you could always nerf the range of all allied 60 range TDs, sure, to 55 or 50 or whatever, and then give them 200-something armor and 800 HP or so to compensate. Sure. I could get behind that I suppose. We could even talk price increases then - they would be as essentially impossible to kill with medium tanks as the Panther is (though you could still flank the SU-85 lol)
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mrgame2
26 Nov 2019, 02:56 AM
#42
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

How much pen reduction until we get accused of vet2 panther armor is too much? How much reduction won't likely to help med play. Do we want su85 become a jp4?

Range reduction is better as it frees up the field more. At 55td,it is clearly still advantages with focused sight, tracking and tank commanders.

It just allow ATg to better support p4p5, as it should. Many times, the 60td keeps diving in and out since atgun struggle to keep up at range
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ShadowLinkX37
26 Nov 2019, 03:36 AM
#43
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Just for future reference, if you ever want to add a poll to a thread you've already made, you can ask a mod to add one. Now we have 2 threads for the same topic. It's fine and it happens as no one really tells you what staff powers are unless you ask, but just for future reference, now you know. :)

Carry on!
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mrgame2
26 Nov 2019, 03:53 AM
#44
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

I agree p4 can kill Jackson, i myself encounter it when playing usf. But that's my bad micro, still using panther mindset and not using its advantages.

As such, i don't think this scenario is strong enough to convince why 55td makes more sense now.

Similarly, I seen top games where a double flanking panther fail to kill double su85. Sov can make unit compositions and off map arty to make things harder.

Likewise panthers also suffer from pathing more since it needs more active micro. Double Sherman and 75s and Cromwell can kill a confused panther

All im saying a slight 5 range nerf seems to make most sense. 60td is flagged out as over performing and lazy hard counters to all
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VIGNASH
26 Nov 2019, 06:06 AM
#45
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 187

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 03:36 AMShadowLinkX37
Just for future reference, if you ever want to add a poll to a thread you've already made, you can ask a mod to add one. Now we have 2 threads for the same topic. It's fine and it happens as no one really tells you what staff powers are unless you ask, but just for future reference, now you know. :)

Carry on!


Oh didnt really know that. Thanks for letting me know, will keep in mind for future!
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Vipper
26 Nov 2019, 09:47 AM
#46
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 02:55 AMMazianni

...
But on the topic of Panthers not killing medium plays, you are completely and totally wrong, since as has been demonstrated many times already, allied medium tanks cannot fight the Panther. ...

And what exactly is your the Point. A TD that is more expensive that any medium in cost and pop does not lose 1vs1 vs them. Would be logical if a single medium would win vs Panther?
:)
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Princeps
26 Nov 2019, 10:42 AM
#47
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 02:55 AMMazianni


...

I mean, you are welcome to play a few games as allies and just never ever produce any 60 range TDs. I implore you to do so and to show us the results of this endeavor.



I want to see you try and kill Panthers and Tigers with only the M1 AT gun or the Zis-3 so fucking badly. Do you just assume every gun in the game is a copy of your Pak-40? TWP and all?

Alternatively, you could always nerf the range of all allied 60 range TDs, sure, to 55 or 50 or whatever, and then give them 200-something armor and 800 HP or so to compensate. Sure. I could get behind that I suppose. We could even talk price increases then - they would be as essentially impossible to kill with medium tanks as the Panther is (though you could still flank the SU-85 lol)


And here it is ....:clap:
so just another "i dont want to use combiend arms... just sit back an enjoy the 60Range TD meta..."

the easy mode :D

why use all the tools and mabe flank (like in COH1) but ... nooo way.

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Mr Carmine
26 Nov 2019, 10:46 AM
#48
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 03:53 AMmrgame2
I agree p4 can kill Jackson, i myself encounter it when playing usf. But that's my bad micro, still using panther mindset and not using its advantages.

As such, i don't think this scenario is strong enough to convince why 55td makes more sense now.

Similarly, I seen top games where a double flanking panther fail to kill double su85. Sov can make unit compositions and off map arty to make things harder.

Likewise panthers also suffer from pathing more since it needs more active micro. Double Sherman and 75s and Cromwell can kill a confused panther

All im saying a slight 5 range nerf seems to make most sense. 60td is flagged out as over performing and lazy hard counters to all


If a flank needs to end with the units being flanked get wiped or destroyed 100% of the time. Why dont my conscripts always wipe flanked at gun or mg42? You sure want a game like that?
You just want a panther to be extremely good without any downsides just because it expensive. Td are 60 range because they have no ai whatsoever, the have no blits, low armour, in su85,s case no turret. All thing panthers do have.

Panther being harder to micro is a lie, it has heavy crush for crying out loud. It just waltzes over almost anything. With mediums you mostly need to mirco around obstacels they cant crush.
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The Spycrab
26 Nov 2019, 14:18 PM
#49
avatar of The Spycrab

Posts: 39

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2019, 15:06 PMVipper

That is simply biased observation, the stats tell a different story. Actually FF is one of the most accurate unit in game with a mid range of 45 higher than both elephant and JT.


The reason for this thread is a subjective, biased opinion piece no? It is based on the fact a panther while stationary missed, just because a 1 off observation happened doesn't mean its actually true, i was trying to get a satirical kind of attitude across in that post. I know how good the FF actually is.
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Mazianni
26 Nov 2019, 20:33 PM
#50
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 09:47 AMVipper

And what exactly is your the Point. A TD that is more expensive that any medium in cost and pop does not lose 1vs1 vs them. Would be logical if a single medium would win vs Panther?


The point is literally in the passage you quote. Had you bothered to read this thread you'd realize that. A claim was made that the Panther was not as oppressive to medium tank play as the other TDs in this game, and I argued otherwise. Do not let your vendetta with me ruin another thread by (hopefully not deliberately) ignoring the posts of others.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 10:42 AMPrinceps


And here it is ....:clap:
so just another "i dont want to use combiend arms... just sit back an enjoy the 60Range TD meta..."

the easy mode :D

why use all the tools and mabe flank (like in COH1) but ... nooo way.



The only laziness here is thinking your tanks should be immune to all but easily screened "flanking" attacks in a game with as cramped and clustered maps as this one. Literally all it takes is one mine or a volksgren squad and 25 munitions and your "flank" is now a suicide run.

As I've said before, if the presence of heavy tanks (very much including the panther) did not downright require allied TDs be deployed, we might even be able to have a productive discussion about nerfing them. Until that point it is off the table, unless said nerfs only affect their capability versus medium tanks
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Lago
26 Nov 2019, 23:26 PM
#51
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Medium tanks are never going to thrive in team games when the map pool is full of long, laney maps like Rails and Metal and Alliance of Defiance. It's always going to be the domain of anti-tank guns, indirect fire and long range vehicles.

The only real way to fix this is to add wider maps to the map pool, but the community is so resistant to learning new maps and so abusive towards the people who make them that it's no surprise mappers aren't willing volunteer their time to make new content.
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KiwiBirb
26 Nov 2019, 23:37 PM
#52
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2019, 15:03 PMVIGNASH


I think that promotes a cancer strat where in 4v4 matches, axis players just spam panthers and dive behind front lines and end the game...so stationary is far better and makes less cancer.


And allies spam TDs and camp the victory points and never advance and win the game... so mobility is better and makes less cancer.
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them

and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
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KiwiBirb
26 Nov 2019, 23:45 PM
#53
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

The panther is not a heavy tank destroyer in its current iteration, it is a medium hunter. It’s armour doesn’t help much vs heavies and it’s low DPS and mediocre penetration make it bad against heavies.

We should be comparing StuGs to Tank destroyers, in which StuGs suck compared to allied TDs

And we should be complaining that Sov and Usf lack non doctrinal medium tank hunters, as this is what leads to Tank destroyers having to also counter medium tank spam, and then becoming an OP all countering monster.
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them

and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
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DonnieChan
26 Nov 2019, 23:48 PM
#54
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

nothing makes one more furious thatn a panther missing the last shot
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197983982810
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Vipper
27 Nov 2019, 00:32 AM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 20:33 PMMazianni


The point is literally in the passage you quote. Had you bothered to read this thread you'd realize that. A claim was made that the Panther was not as oppressive to medium tank play as the other TDs in this game, and I argued otherwise.

I am not sure what you mean with "oppressive" but the Panther is less cost efficient than Allied TDs vs mediums since it a more expensive vehicles with higher pop countering cheaper tanks.

I one want to counter mediums he is better off building stugs as Ostheeer and probably PzIV as OKW.
jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 20:33 PMMazianni

Do not let your vendetta with me ruin another thread by (hopefully not deliberately) ignoring the posts of others.

I have not vendetta with you but the fact that in your opinion I have and I derail threads is a strong indication that you have one with me.

Now can you please stop the personal remark and move on.
:)
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Felinewolfie
27 Nov 2019, 02:07 AM
#56
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2019, 13:59 PMaerafield


The base stats are fine, but all other TDs get an accuracy bonus with vet, panther doesnt.

Since vet 2 does not do that much atm (bit more armor and increased turret rotation) I think it should also give 20 or 30% more accuracy


Give Panther all-Jackson stats, and remove it's armor down to the level of Jackson.
Remove it's machine-guns.Give it Jackson range, and give it accuracy bonuses and rate of fire.

Make all allied and Axis units same stats and same price.

Problem fixed, right?
(That also means reducing Panther's cost and pop and health to Jackson's level)

But you won't be satisfied. Panther is already the best tank in the game, and you want
it's counters gutted and removed. What you truly want, is auto-instant win without skill or effort.

Just be honest and say it !

- Give Panther Allied TD stats and accuray buffs due to vet. Remove Panther's health
and armor stats, and improved armor, health per vet. Problem solved :3
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!

- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
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Felinewolfie
27 Nov 2019, 02:08 AM
#57
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2019, 23:48 PMDonnieChan
nothing makes one more furious thatn a panther missing the last shot


Panthers should 1-shot tank squadrons and infantry squads. Problem solved :)
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!

- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
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aerafield
27 Nov 2019, 12:17 PM
#58
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2019, 02:07 AMFelinewolfie


Give Panther all-Jackson stats, and remove it's armor down to the level of Jackson.
Remove it's machine-guns.Give it Jackson range, and give it accuracy bonuses and rate of fire.

Make all allied and Axis units same stats and same price.

Problem fixed, right?
(That also means reducing Panther's cost and pop and health to Jackson's level)

But you won't be satisfied. Panther is already the best tank in the game, and you want
it's counters gutted and removed. What you truly want, is auto-instant win without skill or effort.

Just be honest and say it !

- Give Panther Allied TD stats and accuray buffs due to vet. Remove Panther's health
and armor stats, and improved armor, health per vet. Problem solved :3


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