You are doing some heavy tailoring there but allow me. The V1 relied on recon of a known position and time to construct a ramp and set the auto pilot, for a chance to hit an area. The targets generally being cities. Id cast serious doubt on its ability to hit a bridge with a singe deployment. So yes, fiction on a heavy level and certainly again not used on single positions of troops on a platoon or battalion level as COH1 depicted. Quite often as a counter to USF base howitzers as I remember (in the game not life).
No, no, the V-1 could also be hung and corrected from a bomber, and it was with these V-1s that the Germans fired at Soviet crossings across the Oder River. |
I'm talking of the games fiction, that you as a player just placed them where ever you pleased in a split moment. They were not used against a battalion of troops moving along. So yea, pure fiction.
And troops did not move along these bridges and supplies were not carried out. It was a blow in a vacuum. Oh no, it wasn't. |
V1 isn't a story of its own, its tactical use is pure fiction. They didn't run out and make a ramp to launch one at a moving tank column.
And yes, I am aware the Luftwaffe existed post Bodenplatte, but its ability to make significant change on the landscape was very limited so in the games context, fictional.
And yes, the Sturmtriger regiments as any other would have kept records of being deployed. But is success out in the field has not earned it anywhere near its reputation in COH as a franchise. It did great when its target was a city, what it was meant for. This changed when its target was tactical not strategic.
So again, Relic has little regard for Fictional history. Black prince cant simply vanish as that will break their product day one. So the discussion cant just be oh remove it, or add these other units last moment.
So bombarding bridges with V-1s is not a tactical use? And is this pure fiction? |
V1 - wrong representation of usage, yet the thing is authentical
Bergitiger - authentical usage (engi vehicle) put into a gameplay mechanic
Luft - wrong time period, yet authentical representation.
Black Prince on the other neither authentical nor wrongly represented nor using wrong time period. If we count game to be set in WW2, Black Prince is simply out of scope of this time period. Adding it to the game is pure fiction, without any redeeming justification for it to exist.
On a side note, the only examples of pure BP level fiction in both CoH games, would probably be things like flame\stun grenades and KCH from vCoH.
And thats the point, there are churchills with the same gun as BP which were actually used. And no-one against UKF having them with the same stats which are planned fro BP. Its the not performance\role of BP what is a problem, its the vehicle itself.
Operation "Bodenplatte" (January 1, 1945) is not the end of the Luftwaffe, during the Seelow-Berlin operation on April 16-19, 1945, almost at the end of the war, the Ground Forces supported 3,300 aircraft, this is clearly not nothing. |
V1s didn't participate in tactical combat, Bergetigers didn't recover complete wreck vehicles, The Luftwaffe didn't participate much after Boddenpatte and they are present in the franchise doing so. I think its fairly clear that Relic tailors fiction to suit a narrative, and I'm fine with the Black prince, its not very out of this world and especially not in Relics franchise context.
I mean if they've been balancing the unit to be an allied heavy to counter the Tigers presence, I wouldn't want them to remove it and create balance issues. Since Relic doesn't care about timelines of units and you are obsessed with the deployment thing, they could add another allied heavy with he same stats from another time period in the war I guess. But simply removing the Black Prince alone is a pretty non starter and Relic isn't just going to create a vacuum, that means day one broken balance.
No, it's just lazy filling in of balance and design that paves the way for an even bigger paper army - Japan. If you want to fit Japan into the Game against the IS-2 or SU-100 or other allied tanks, then almost the entire Japanese Army is a set of non-combat or prototype tanks. |
But COH isn't an authentic franchise, its seen many non authentic moves and they've typically been to the benefit of creating an interesting German faction. Some on the units you've mentioned the difference of their appearance would have been German old men and boys commitment to resist long enough for their arrival such as the IS3 so fairly authentic. Whereas no matter how long they resisted the E100 and Maus had no serial production factories ready to begin production. IS3 was a decent option for a Soviet Call in they could have gone for that. Also if certain German fortifications weren't abandoned or in ruin I'm sure you very well would have seen papa Joe call in the big boys that were purpose built to deal with them, just turned out the man had run.
Again it is pretty mega gatekeeping to be hung up on this one piece of fiction now when we've had so many works of fiction that allowed a competent 44-45 German faction. Of course that's because this is a game not a history lecture as that one is one sided, they lost.
Id be curious how this discussion would have gone if from the get go the Black Prince hadn't been added but instead there was an ME 262 strafe, or a Bismarck bombardment. Curious if the resistance camp would have been as strong. With the previous titles records of complaints against the over representation of little seen Axis toys or fictional depictions of thier abilities I'm going to say little to none.
Imaginary reasoning. But the reality is that the CoH franchise only used units that participated in the war. And the appearance of the Black Prince, the IS-3, the Mouse is a fantasy, regardless of the real prerequisites for production, they all did not participate in the war. |
Why stop at Black Prince? Let's make all factions out of prototypes or paper tanks!
- Germany: E series can cover all needs: tank destroyer, main medium tank, heavy tank. Or a Panther 2 with a Tiger 2 with a 105mm gun.
- USA: T20, T23, T25, T95, T29/30 series
- Britain: Black Prince, Tortoise(A39), A33 Excelsior, Valiant, Centurion
- USSR: SU-85A, SU-101, SU-44-122, T-44, T-34-100, IS-3
Fuck authenticity, let's add more "cool stuff" to the game. We don't fucking want to play some retarded Company of Heroes that used only WWII units, we want to play World of Tanks with paper tanks or prototypes. |
I agree these should not be put in. As they dont look like ww2 tanks they look like cold war tanks wich they are. The black prince still looks like a ww2 tank.
All of them are tanks of the Second World War, only the T-44 and IS-3 are serial tanks that did not make it to the war due to childhood illnesses. A tank that does not participate in the war has no place in World War II, and even more so for a prototype from 1945 to 1942. There is always an easy way to go to an alternative history - Operation Unthinkable, you can fantasize as much as you like: Black Prince, T-44, IS-3, production of the E series of tanks by the Germans under the supervision of the Allies, Czechoslovaks producing German tanks (what they did in the occupation) and fighting on the Soviet side. Any dream. Leave WWII with WWII tanks. |
I already said i dont mind if they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before. You know that saw combat. Just the black prince sounds cool and i understand why they choose it. But you may have missed that part.
Axis are already bordering on prototype units with for example the st but i never was against its inclusion even stock. There is not much difference here between them in numbers build and nr off actions.
There never was this level off outrage over other units before. The pershing got some outrage for not fitting in the faction design in coh2.
Now its about a prototype.
None of them complained about the over representation of axis heavies, wich they should do if their logic is consistant.
I am 100% sure that most who fanaticaly dont want the bp added will do a 180° if it was a german prototype.
Yes brits have heavies, there just not played much for a reason. So you dont see their heavies much iff at all. And its mostly just the comet. And some crocodile use.
Axis heavies are more viable and available then most allied heavies. They always have them and even spam them in big games. They mostly have some small drawbacks opposed to major strengths. Therin lies the problem.
I don’t know about others, but if the Soviet Faction is added to the game again and Reliс for some reason wants to add "cool stuff" that was not in the war, for example: T-44, IS-3, ZSU-37, I will be the first one with a pitchfork against this, even though I and crazy in love with these tanks. |
I don't see how they've ever achieved much historical accuracy if you consider the vehicles present in COH 1 or 2 in the respective time periods.
I would definitely say that Relic has shown there is a caveat to how they abide historical accuracy to create an interesting product. That's why we have flame hetzers, ostwinds, 1945 fuel drops from invincible stukas and stock King Tigers and IR halftracks.
Why are you sure that these are air bridges of 1945? When the OKW was based on 1944-1945. And in 1944 Germany continued air supply.And the flamethrower Hetzer as was the Ostwind was used in the Ardennes Operation, event in which the game takes place. |