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Stuff
Since you're both in the same clan and share similiar views on the topic. Why don't you provide us with some 2v2 quality replays where you counterplay B-4 strats, without using Stukadivebomb+Recon? |
90 muni for a a single squad isn't worth it. Unless maybe vetted Obers or fallshirms. But for grens or volks, or just new Obers? naah to expensive, I'll wait for a better target or just use ordinary fire against static emplacements (if they are in range.)
Well I say it's damn well worth it, I also trigger my demos for a single squad. Even then, the normal barrage shot is free, ofc more rng dependant but still it's free.
Fast moving AFVs are a risky business. So is going for a flank on a Jagd when you are unsure of what is behind it. You have to consider the risk and the reward in all engagements.
I suggest it because in my own experience those get the B-4s just as often as the Stuka strikes does.
And my risk reward analysis combined with my experience tells me that it's more often than not a suicide commando that maybe ends in a decrewed B-4 and a total loss of the attacking force.
You cannot sufficiently cover the B-4 with AT-guns, mines and defences to stop it getting wiped by a large and fast enough flank. Doing so would be wasteful of resources.
So you try to negate that threat by pushing on the enemy and keeping him where I want him to fight. Preferably in my cone of fire.
I'm sorry, the base defenses and maybe 2-4 mines are all the cover it needs on the majority of 2v2 maps.
On top of that, your army always stands between your enemy and the B-4, even if they manage to get past, you'll get them on their way back.
Plus Stuka isn't a granted counter (unless luftwaffe supply) because the cost of it is so huge, especially considered the need for using tons of muni on your units as axis. (lmg, schreks, riflenades and so on)
And what's your conclusion from this sentence? |
You don't have to keep all units moving at all times. You need to keep them seperate enough not to become an inviting target.
And yes tanks should be kept moving around, the long fire animation and long travel time means you about the same warning time as when facing Katyusha or Stuka zu Fuss, and only a direct hit (or really close) will do any considerable damage.
Every single squad is a valid target if you got such a high chance of wiping it.
Also the frequency of engine damages and the fact that you'll have to stand still to rapair a tank make it impossible to move a vehicle all the time.
Yes one single unit having a huge impact is kinda a general problem of the game. But it only does so if you allow it to, this is the ultimate end to blobbing and turtleing.
However (as I pointed out earlier in this thread) its slow rotation, long reload and lack of accuracy (lest you build no mines, hold 2 munipoints and play heavy t-2) you can negate its effect. Even though you might not see the opportunity to fully destroy it.
As for wrecking it, what gets me most of the time is any type of quick moving AFV, like a P-4, P-2 or Puma.
Speaking entirely from a 2v2 perspective; ammo shortage can easily be avoided with an ammo cache or a teammate that does all the mining. Even without, sacrificing one precision strike for three mines is no big deal.
You suggest a daring push that is more often than not a simple suicide commando with a very questionable chance of success. On maps like Semoski, Minsk or Kahrkov even Moscow, such a thing is close to impossible, if your enemy knows what hes doing.
That leaves us with Stuka+Recon commander which completely denies the B-4.
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I see. So you also are arguing for the removal of vet4 and vet5.
Absoulutely. Or at least change it so vet 4 and 5 only give abililties like flare, smoke, sprint etc. but no stat buffs.
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Hey, when you say "obs'd it" is this some kind of alternate video that I can watch, or are you just saying that if I download the replay I will see the above mentioned highlights? I remember back when I played C&C 3 they had a commentator mode so I'm wondering if something like that was recently added and I missed it.
Yes. Relic has implemented an observer mode. You can access it via the main menu if you press the "Live Games" button. |
Thread: Demos31 Dec 2014, 11:25 AM
The problem with most 'antiblob counters' in the game, I think, is that they do alright vs blobs but really excel against single squads at the same time. Like the old KV8, for example- good blob smasher, but where the real issue was was the ability to eviscerate any lone capping squad, on retreat or otherwise.
Even worse, take the Greyhound. The canister is nominally an anti-blob weapon, but what ends up happening is that it roves around the map and obliterates any squad on its own- meaning that the only way to prevent that is to loosely blob up and do enough damage to destroy the M8 before it gets close. It's counterproductive and in a way, forces you to blob up to counter it.
Same with demos- good against blobs, near guaranteed kill on solo squads. 120mm, good vs blobs, randomly wipes single squads anyway. Tiger, good vs blobs, oneshots squads at the same time. B4, good against blobs, good against solo squads, good vs tanks, good vs everything really 
Very well put. +1 |
Haven't they changed the trajectory to always be "arced" a few patches ago? It's mentioned in this changelog.
Yes they have, but it still fires either in a flat or steep arc. The change you mentioned was more to make them less effective vs. vehicles afaik (Scott vs. Puma Problematic). |
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When will people finally get it?
I'll repeat it for all you "hurr durr If you wanna nurf x then you'll have to nurf y too bcuse it's way mor overpovrd".
Stuff that wipes Squads without warning and no possibility to react is just bad fuckintg design, no matter what faction.
Example Katusha/Stuka; loud as, distinctiv howling sound when firing, random spacing of rockets within target sector, still short time window to react once the first rocket landed.
As long as cooldown, cost, and aoe damage are in line, those units are fine.
M8a1/M8 Greyhound CANISTERSHOT; no distinctive warning, moving your units or even retreating them does not prevent a wipe.
This is bad design because it completely nullifies the skill to keep squads alive.
@Budwise; The Problem lies with the way it's ballistic arc is designed afaik. Shooting with flat trajectory, for whatever reason, leads to very frequent squad wipes. The LeIG and the Pack howie share the same mechanic, yet they wipe squad less often because their less mobile and thus don't fire with flat trajectory as often as the M8a1 does.
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Meh
Same opponents, same map, same factions, beaten in half the time:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/hbjrrk
PS:
b4: 30 kills, 437%, doctrinal
stuka: 70 kills, 1036%, non-doctrinal
But b4 is 'crazy OP'? FailFish I can see what is crazy here
First of all the game was played on semoski which by design favors artillery play, especially the stuka due to easily predictable retreatpaths and availability of shotblockers. You also seem to forget, that the stuka fires at 4-6man squads, which easily leads to high killcounts without saying much about it's actual efficiency.
If you provide me a highlevel replay, on say moscow outskirts, where you reach a similiar grade of efficiency with the walking stuka,then I'd be really impressed. |
I only partly agree here.
Katusha, Stuka and ML-20 only really are a problem on certain maps (for example semoski). One of the main issues here are the OH 4-man squads.
The 120mm is a tad too effective for it's price and on some maps I'd argue it's even op.
Scott, Pack Howie and the LeIG suffer from the problem, that they wipe squads when firing in flat trajectory but can't hit shit when firing with a step trajectory. This needs to be adjusted so they deal reliable damage over all ranges.
The B-4 is in a bad spot for the reasons stated and discussed here. |
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