About the B-4

90 muni for a a single squad isn't worth it. Unless maybe vetted Obers or fallshirms. But for grens or volks, or just new Obers? naah to expensive, I'll wait for a better target or just use ordinary fire against static emplacements (if they are in range.)

Well I say it's damn well worth it, I also trigger my demos for a single squad. Even then, the normal barrage shot is free, ofc more rng dependant but still it's free.

Fast moving AFVs are a risky business. So is going for a flank on a Jagd when you are unsure of what is behind it. You have to consider the risk and the reward in all engagements.

I suggest it because in my own experience those get the B-4s just as often as the Stuka strikes does.

And my risk reward analysis combined with my experience tells me that it's more often than not a suicide commando that maybe ends in a decrewed B-4 and a total loss of the attacking force.

You cannot sufficiently cover the B-4 with AT-guns, mines and defences to stop it getting wiped by a large and fast enough flank. Doing so would be wasteful of resources.
So you try to negate that threat by pushing on the enemy and keeping him where I want him to fight. Preferably in my cone of fire.

I'm sorry, the base defenses and maybe 2-4 mines are all the cover it needs on the majority of 2v2 maps.
On top of that, your army always stands between your enemy and the B-4, even if they manage to get past, you'll get them on their way back.

Plus Stuka isn't a granted counter (unless luftwaffe supply) because the cost of it is so huge, especially considered the need for using tons of muni on your units as axis. (lmg, schreks, riflenades and so on)

And what's your conclusion from this sentence?

Well I say it's damn well worth it, I also trigger my demos for a single squad. Even then, the normal barrage shot is free, ofc more rng dependant but still it's free.

It's not worth at all.

Demo is something different than B-4.

You have planted demo to wipe something but you can not be sure if enemy will ever stand there so if he is, you are using demo.

When I see single squad in range of my B-4, I NEVER use my B4 (unless it's vet 5 obers squad) because I know how long realod is and what if 20sec later something better will show up?

I'm using B-4 all the time and I know what Im talking about. Never use precision strike for 1 squad.
Even if B4 stands useless for 2mins it's OK because it's always ready to hit something big.

Long reload. 60sec. XD!!!!

Long reload. 60sec. XD!!!!

Add to this rotation speed, moving units and you will shoot once every 3mins.

I'm sorry, the base defenses and maybe 2-4 mines are all the cover it needs on the majority of 2v2 maps.
On top of that, your army always stands between your enemy and the B-4, even if they manage to get past, you'll get them on their way back.

Base defences are poor against tanks. And mines only slow you down nothing more, plus Pios aren't expensive. And sure risk of death for your units is great, but the question is will they complete their objective before they die? A tactical loss for operational success.

Like all attacks, weigh your potential gain, with how many units you need to have a good enough chance of success vs how much force you are willing to risk. Same as when going against any enemy position or heavy vehicle.

And what's your conclusion from this sentence?

That just because somebody went with a doctrine that has Stuka, that doesn't mean it is guaranteed hard countered.


And if your enemy is spread out enough that any flank is impossible, smash his lines for he has spread them to thin. (Like Poland!)
Moscow is a perfect example of how a B-4 can be counterplayed. The guy with the B-4 wants you to fight in the middle, and in order to keep you there he needs to commit troops, which will mean he neglects either the left or right. The B-4 cannot be effective in more than one direction at the time because it moves like a jagd with a wrecked engine, and also buggs out for like a minute at times.

Minsk is a great example of when B-4 is a good choice but you have to weigh putting it the back and have it do close to nothing and not be good for offensive pushes or put it in the front where it is exposed but can reach the enemy lines.

Kharkov and semois are probably the best 2v2 maps for it. Chokes near spawn, narrow maps and a covered base. Still just a simple shift of attack direction is an easy and nice way to negate it. and even if harder to pull off it is not impervious to flanking at these maps.

Having a B-4 being overly noticeable/rage-inducing is often because that is the only thing keeping them ingame. It is far to slow to manoeuvre and find good targets if you are winning. So maybe consider knocking it out can be a game winning reward so that should allow you taking greater risk knocking it out.

Add to this rotation speed, moving units and you will shoot once every 3mins.

On most maps you dont need to rotate the B4 an awfull lot (looking at you minsk pocket and semoisky) but even if you need to rotate, you can do it before you start the firing animation/during the reload, saving you some time.

And i honestly wonder when you consider 60 seconds to be a long reload time, what you think of the Stuka zu Fuss with 120 seconds, or the werfer with 100 seconds? not to mention the fact that the reload time of the B4 becomes 35 seconds at vet 2.
And once every 3 minutes? with all respect to you, if your B4 fires once every 3 minutes you are doing something wrong.

As for shooting at lone squads, most grens run around with the lmg upgrade (60 muni) and most volks have the schreck (90 muni) so its very much worth it to kill those sqauds with the 90 muni precision strike. And with 60 sec reload, you can have your B4 ready for the next target.

Oh and obers are 400 mp, spending 90 muni to wipe them out is very much worth it, not even considering any veterancy.

On the note of destroying the B4 with risky pushses, even if you do succeed without great loss, what is there to prevent the enemy from building another B4? nothing at all, since it just forces you to move in again, with the odds stacked against you.

Edit: has anyone considered deliberatly choosing the B4, so the enemy would go for a commander with Stuka bomb? this way, you force the enemy commander decision, leading to a strategical advantage i think.

On most maps you dont need to rotate the B4 an awfull lot (looking at you minsk pocket and semoisky) but even if you need to rotate, you can do it before you start the firing animation/during the reload, saving you some time.

If you are afraid of B4 on those maps just veto them.

And i honestly wonder when you consider 60 seconds to be a long reload time, what you think of the Stuka zu Fuss with 120 seconds, or the werfer with 100 seconds? not to mention the fact that the reload time of the B4 becomes 35 seconds at vet 2.
And once every 3 minutes? with all respect to you, if your B4 fires once every 3 minutes you are doing something wrong.

If you have Stuka or Werfer, you can also have Tiger, Panther, King Tiger. If you have B4, you can't have IS2, ISU or even T34/85. All you have is B4, it's your main unit.
Give Stuka zu fuss 40sec relod but take away Panthers, Command Panther or King Tiger.

As for shooting at lone squads, most grens run around with the lmg upgrade (60 muni) and most volks have the schreck (90 muni) so its very much worth it to kill those sqauds with the 90 muni precision strike. And with 60 sec reload, you can have your B4 ready for the next target.

It's never worth to shoot for a single wipe (unless it's vetted squad - by the way who the hell keeps vetted Obers in 1 place for so long that B4 can hit it? Move units, move units...). You don't know if 20sec later something huge will shows up.
Shoot every time it's ready and you will have no ammo after 2-4 strike at single squads.

Oh and obers are 400 mp, spending 90 muni to wipe them out is very much worth it, not even considering any veterancy.

Like I said before, If I would shoot at every single squad I would not have any ammo (recons, smoke, grenade, molotovs, at nades....)

On the note of destroying the B4 with risky pushses, even if you do succeed without great loss, what is there to prevent the enemy from building another B4? nothing at all, since it just forces you to move in again, with the odds stacked against you.

If you destroy vet 3 B-4 in late-game it's most of the time GG.
600 MP is a huge investment in late-game when you have wounded troops.
Also B4 without veterancy is useless against massive attack with Panther or King Tiger.
Even decrewing vetted B4 is usually gg. This is the momentum. If you won't use this moment it's your fault. Agasint decent opponent, losing vetted crew is gg.

Stuff

Stuff

Since you're both in the same clan and share similiar views on the topic. Why don't you provide us with some 2v2 quality replays where you counterplay B-4 strats, without using Stukadivebomb+Recon?

If you are afraid of B4 on those maps just veto them.

Wonderfull way of bypassing the second half of that part of the post, but besides that, you are also wrong: those maps were an example of where the B4 doesnt need to rotate, not maps where i fear the B4 (hilarious idea that i fear it btw, but ok).

If you have Stuka or Werfer, you can also have Tiger, Panther, King Tiger. If you have B4, you can't have IS2, ISU or even T34/85. All you have is B4, it's your main unit.
Give Stuka zu fuss 40sec relod but take away Panthers, Command Panther or King Tiger.

You miss the point, i was inquiring how you think the 120 sec reload is on stuka, compared to 60 sec on B4 (which you consider long).
And you missed the kv-1 btw.

It's never worth to shoot for a single wipe (unless it's vetted squad - by the way who the hell keeps vetted Obers in 1 place for so long that B4 can hit it? Move units, move units...). You don't know if 20sec later something huge will shows up.
Shoot every time it's ready and you will have no ammo after 2-4 strike at single squads.

I think i already explained why certain single units are worth to be wiped out. Besides that, every squad has to stand still at some point, wether it is with healing up, or fighting.
As for knowing if something else shows up, there is that recon plane in the commander.

And i never claimed to shoot at every single sqaud, much less with precision strike.

If you destroy vet 3 B-4 in late-game it's most of the time GG.
600 MP is a huge investment in late-game when you have wounded troops.
Also B4 without veterancy is useless against massive attack with Panther or King Tiger.
Even decrewing vetted B4 is usually gg. This is the momentum. If you won't use this moment it's your fault. Agasint decent opponent, losing vetted crew is gg.

I had a match against very decent opponents, where i lost 2 B4's (one of which with vet 1).
I simply build a third one and i daresay that B4 won us the game.

90 muni for a wipe is always worth it. You are not wasting the "cooldown". I mean no one uses PS with Katyushkas ?

Base rushes are not viable most of the time. Any piece of equipment inside base bunker/shot blockers are not gonna be destroy on an even game by units.

Losing crew isn't equal to losing 600mp. Plus you are gonna have less mp drain till relic decides to balance/fix it AND you can give it to your teammates.

Since you're both in the same clan and share similiar views on the topic. Why don't you provide us with some 2v2 quality replays where you counterplay B-4 strats, without using Stukadivebomb+Recon?

I almost always take Elephnat+Stuka or Spearhead so B-4 is not threat for me.

Wonderfull way of bypassing the second half of that part of the post, but besides that, you are also wrong: those maps were an example of where the B4 doesnt need to rotate, not maps where i fear the B4 (hilarious idea that i fear it btw, but ok).

Where did I skip something?
If my enemies are clumped in the middle on semosky it's their fault, and it's everything I can ask for.
Use flanks, the push middle and my B4 will have troubles if I should rotate or maybe stand still and wait.

You miss the point, i was inquiring how you think the 120 sec reload is on stuka, compared to 60 sec on B4 (which you consider long).
And you missed the kv-1 btw.

And you have missed my point. Stuka or werfer are support weapons, they don't need faster reload.
They can be used even if enemy has spreaded out troops. B-4 works only clumped units. Stuka can take down line of ZiSs and Maxims. B4 can take down only one pak or only one mg.
KV1? Really?

I think i already explained why certain single units are worth to be wiped out. Besides that, every squad has to stand still at some point, wether it is with healing up, or fighting.
As for knowing if something else shows up, there is that recon plane in the commander.
And i never claimed to shoot at every single sqaud, much less with precision strike.

Yes, some squads are worth to take a shot (like vetted Obers) but this is not common.
If you are healing squads, they are definitely outside of my sight and I won't shoot into fog unless I see retreating units and I know here is retreat point.
So probably you will see recon plane. Recon plane is obvious sign that B4 strike is comming, so if you have vetted squads, tanks, anything juicy you have to move it until plane is gone.
Also I can not afford for recon plane all the time. I have to use molotovs, oorah, schocks nades, mines, at nades, barrages so everything I have, I save for precision strike. This leads us to situation where often I can't afford to kill 1 squad.

I had a match against very decent opponents, where i lost 2 B4's (one of which with vet 1).
I simply build a third one and i daresay that B4 won us the game.

Losing unvetted or vet1 B4 is not big issue (besides 1200 MP or even 1800 if you built third one).
Losing vet 3 B-4 in last 5-15min of the game where there is no time to vet it again is gg.
Also if you have used 1800mp and still won well... there was something wrong if your opponent.

Катюша / Katyusha - See there is ONE K. Sorry pet-peeve.

90 muni for a wipe isn't worth it and it is not comparable to other non-doc arty because like Aussie says. THIS IS IT. That is your heavy stuff, that is your damage dealers. You can have KV-1 and Su-85s and inf to hold a line and advance where the B-4 knocks up holes. But it is a choice.
Instead of being able to hit multiple times with ISU or IS-2, KT or T. You have that one shot, then you have to wait a minimum of 34 secs to fire again, and hope the enemy is in your field of fire.
You need to hit an important enough objective for you to prevent your line from falling in those coming 34 seconds. *(often alot more because muni costs, rotation and no good enough targets)

One volks squad isn't worth it. No matter that he spent 90 muni and 230 mp on it. Neither is an ober squad, unless seriously vetted.
Not a matter of cost but a matter of fact that you need to do serious damage to the enemy, to hold till you can fire again.
Me and Aussie spam this thing ad nausium (when we can because luftwaffe supply, so once every weeek or so) we know this unit, trust us when we say that we won't target lone squads, unless we've already won.)


If you don't think the B-4 needs to rotate alot, even on those maps, you haven't used it against smarter players. If you KNOW this area is covered by heavy artillery, why walk into that cone of fire? It moves slow and as a relatively (to other arty) small cone of fire.


And no having me and Aussie play against eachother with B-4 would serve no purpose and we (I atleast) won't waste a huge amount of gametime by trying to prove a point, also when I play axis against aussie, I will loose, when I play allies with B-4 against aussie, I will loose. He is a much better player than me and the B-4 won't save my behind against him.


And finally elchino7, Loosing crew with a B-4 that is in your base means that b-4 is worthless until RNG blesses you with a lucky hit. B-4 is only effective at about half its distance without precision strike. that point was made earlier in this thread.

I dont have much in the way of 4v4 experience, but as far as 2v2 is concerned, I could not disagree more. Once you hit a decent standard of play, almost without fail the side wins which manages to kill off the opposing vet infantry in the lategame, and every opportunity to do so should be taken immediately.

And no having me and Aussie play against eachother with B-4 would serve no purpose and we (I atleast) won't waste a huge amount of gametime by trying to prove a point, also when I play axis against aussie, I will loose, when I play allies with B-4 against aussie, I will loose. He is a much better player than me and the B-4 won't save my behind against him.

No no you got me wrong. You two guys team up and go automatch as Axis without using any Stukadive+Recon Commanders so you can show us how to counterplay B-4 strategies performed by an enemy team of about equal skill.

I think it's pretty clear by now that the "Angy Bears" have a certain agenda in mind with these posts, and may I add, that agenda is obviously not a a balanced game.

I get it guys, it's just common human behaviour that you are not willing to give up your one beloved abusive tool that gives you the edge when playing allies. We all like having an advantage and take the path of least resistance.

However, you should have a look at the bigger picture, which is trying to improve the game. There are still a lot of things broken in COH2, be it volks / ober blobs, constant squad wipes or the subject of this thread, the B-4.

Please do us all a favour though and come to terms with your ridiculous attempts trying to declare this unit as balanced. Proposing vetoing a map, constantly moving all units around or having to choose a doctrine with stuka dive bomb is a serious case of trolling. I hope you were joking with that, right?

And yes, please provide us with a proper replay of you guys playing as axis vs. skilled allied opponents using B-4. No map veto, no stuka dive bomb. Go ahead and surprise this community. At the moment you are just making fools out of yourselves.

the vet bonuses are too just good. Boost its direct fire and rotation speed in return and give it the normal ml20 vet bonuses

I think it's pretty clear by now that the "Angy Bears" have a certain agenda in mind with these posts, and may I add, that agenda is obviously not a a balanced game.

I get it guys, it's just common human behaviour that you are not willing to give up your one beloved abusive tool that gives you the edge when playing allies. We all like having an advantage and take the path of least resistance.

However, you should have a look at the bigger picture, which is trying to improve the game. There are still a lot of things broken in COH2, be it volks / ober blobs, constant squad wipes or the subject of this thread, the B-4.

Please do us all a favour though and come to terms with your ridiculous attempts trying to declare this unit as balanced. Proposing vetoing a map, constantly moving all units around or having to choose a doctrine with stuka dive bomb is a serious case of trolling. I hope you were joking with that, right?

And yes, please provide us with a proper replay of you guys playing as axis vs. skilled allied opponents using B-4. No map veto, no stuka dive bomb. Go ahead and surprise this community. At the moment you are just making fools out of yourselves.

First all statements made on behalf of the Angry Bears must firstly be specified as such. I can tell you not all Bears agree with me an Aussie, I think you can go back a couple of pages and check that out. No statement of balance and or anything made by individual members is a statement by the Angry Bears unless so specified, and approved beforehand. This aught to be understood by everyone.



Im not saying the B-4 isn't strong, Im saying it is neither gamebreaking nor overpowering, and while it being a strong unit, like many others it needs special care taken inorder to negate it and finally destroy it. And saying stuka don't matter because it is commander specific is a poor excuse, you have 6-24 possible commander choices in teamplay 1 should have Stuka. Saying you don't want that one is saying "I want to play the game like I decide too, everyone should adapt to me!" No we all adapt to things. I love the B-4, day before new years I got to use it, time before that was 2 weeks prior. Why? Because the risk associated of going for it and the fact it is very map specific in larger teamgames, and also very specific on the enemies playstyle, you notice in the first 8 mins if you should or should not get a B-4.
You depend on RNG the first shots, and any time it is wiped. You have no heavier tanks. You could have gone for IS2, T-34/85s or ISU that are consistently good, or this unit that might give great success or bugger all. Depending on RNG, Map and the other players.


But I get the underlying problem you all are getting to. The squadwipes you just cannot avoid. You play great, everything is going alright and suddenly, close to no warning BAM fully vetted squad(s) are gone, scream REELLICCC all you want and blame the game, but you have some responsibility too.
I believe this perceived design flaw stems from an attempt by relic to allow for combacks and avoid a snowballing infantry. Right or wrong thats why we see alot of weapons with great wiping potential. And the only way to remove these units and wiping potential completely would be redoing the game.

Personally I don't like the idea of heavy artillery being on-map at all, but that another discussion.

the vet bonuses are too just good. Boost its direct fire and rotation speed in return and give it the normal ml20 vet bonuses

This was what seemed to be the thing in this thread when it died down last time. Vet3 is too strong, needs to be changed. Direct fire should be improved and that can be the vet3 ability.

And finally elchino7, Loosing crew with a B-4 that is in your base means that b-4 is worthless until RNG blesses you with a lucky hit. B-4 is only effective at about half its distance without precision strike. that point was made earlier in this thread.

Just like any other artillery piece.

Just like any other artillery piece.

Sure I'll grant you that.

But B-4 has shorter max range and only one chance RNG will bless you.