Yes, give us some reality. Make that just 3 cons have rifles in the squad. HAHAHA
The misconception that the Red Army lacked enough weapons to arm its men comes from the Battle of Stalingrad. Specifically, General Rodimstev's 13th Guards Rifle Division. The 13th Guards was involved in heavy fighting directly before the Battle of Stalingrad, and had been deployed to the rear to re-arm and to be reinforced. When the garrison at Stalingrad was threatened, the 13th Guards was hurriedly issued with as many PPSh-41, PPS-43, and PPD submachine guns, DP light machine guns, and SVT rifles as were available (and of course Mosin-Nagant rifles for anyone not issued with CQC weaponry) and was shipped across the Volga river at under half strength--only 10,000 men are listed under its roster. 3,000 of those men were killed by shellfire and Luftwaffe attacks before even making it across the river. Now, because of the heavy losses it sustained before the battle, it is suspected that only 1,000 to 2,000 of the 13th Guards' members could be considered combat-experienced--meaning that 8/10 to 9/10 of the division had no flipping clue what it was doing. The 13th Guards was also issued no maps to the city, and thus had no way in which to navigate or to achieve any objectives. Because of the heavy losses sustained while crossing the river, many weapons and supplies were lost, with additional shipments (mostly 7.62mm ammunition and Mosin rifles) coming across with or after the 13th Guards. Thus, the 13th Guards was forced to scrounge German weapons or to make due with knives, bayonets, and sharpened entrenching tools until sufficient stocks of weapons were delivered. This, however, was unneeded, as within 48-72 hours, the division is widely considered to have been destroyed down to ~2,000 to 500 men (with only 280-320 surviving the battle), despite what is considered an impressive (for an inexperienced unit) 1:1 or slightly higher (in favor of the Guards) kill ratio, and the achievement, if only temporarily, of all of its objectives. |
Let us explore the facts of this patch.
Grenadiers cost 240 Manpower and will reliably beat Conscripts in all combat situations, regardless of upgrades, by simply sitting in light or heavy cover. Even charging Conscripts is viable if you have two Grenadiers to his one Conscript. If met with a crewed weapon, one need only to launch a rifle grenade on it and continue to flank or advance towards the weapon with minimal deviation from his original route. Late game, Grenadiers can still get away with suiciding through multiple Soviet tanks (and their machine guns) to kill ZiS weapons and the like, and faust most of the Soviet vehicles before having to retreat. Vet retention is very good unless met with something such as an ISU-152.
Conscripts cost 240 Manpower and will beat Pioneers provided that they enter cover first and are at least at medium to long range. Against Grenadiers, they will lose very handedly even if in cover. Charging two Conscripts towards a Grenadier is asking to have one squad wiped and the other damaged to the point of having to retreat. If met with an MG42, the user must use Ura! to exit the VERY wide arc of fire of the MG, or to get close enough to loose a Molotov onto its crew (assuming the Cons become suppressed, they MG user will have ample time to pack up and move). Attempting to charge an MG is asking to get your face removed, and supported crew weapons are even deadlier as Grenadiers out-DPS you at all ranges, and Pioneers will beat you at point blank range. Late game, Soviet infantry is easily chewed up by Axis hull and co-axial weapons; a Panther is capable of being a mobile suppression platform with the top MG mounted. Attempting to charge an Axis tank to loose a magnetic AT grenade is suicide and usually amounts to a dead Conscript squad. Trying to charge past Axis units to kill a PaK also yields dead infantry.
Penal Battalions Companies cost 270 manpower and will beat Grenadiers and Pioneers at close range provided the Grenadiers lack an MG42, and the Pioneers lack a Flammenwerfer. At long ranges, Penal troops will easily be beaten by Grenadiers, even if the latter is not in cover, and the former is. If faced with an MG42, the Penal troops have no option but to halt and hope to kill the crew before becoming suppressed--they have no ability to Ura! out of harms way until reaching Vet2 (a weedy prospect at best). If you do manage to close with a crewed weapon, your only throw-able option is a satchel charge, that, with a 5 second fuse, is of dubious value against a wary opponent. The only boon of the charge is its ability to now demolish a bunker with one go, but this again assumes you were able to make it to the bunker. Late game, lacking any AT capabilities, Penal troops are more often than not dead weight. Attempting to use them meets the same results as Conscripts, although you may be able to tackle a crewed weapon or lone Grenadier before needing to retreat or being wiped out.
Panzergrenadiere cost 280 manpower and will handedly and quickly beat all manner of enemy infantry at any range, no matter if standing still or charging, with only Shock Troops requiring them to stop and stand their ground for fear of getting beaten at only the closest of ranges. If faced with a crewed weapon, their DPS output is often high enough to kill the gunner before they can be suppressed, and, in any event, their bundled grenade has a long enough range to wipe the crew before being suppressed as well. Late game, Panzergrenadiere can be issued with a pair of Panzerschrecks, with four 'Shrecks being capable of wiping out a T-34 obr 1942 (e.g. T-34/76) with a single volley of fire. With this upgrade, ALL Soviet vehicles, even the ISU-152 and Kliment Voroshilov-series of tanks are forced to retreat in the face of even a pair of Panzergrenadiere. Even with Panzershrecks mounted, PGs retain enough DPS to be able to beat a Conscript squad at close to medium range, and still retain their bundled grenade. Capable of warding off Soviet infantry and vehicles merely by their appearance on the field, Panzergrenadiere have no trouble reaching crewed ZiS weapons, removing them and denying their crucial presence to the Soviets.
Guards Riflemen cost 360 manpower and are limited to a doctrinal existence, and will lose to any Axis infantry squad unless the DP-28 upgrade is researched, regardless of cover. If met with a team weapon, Guards can at least create a window of escape with their RGD-33 hand grenade that can wipe the crew or at least kill the gunner. With DPs researched, Guards possess (from experience) a 50/50 chance of beating Grenadiers (that lack the LMG42 upgrade) at medium to short range, Pioneers at medium to long range, and Panzergrenadiere if the lattermost is out of cover and/or charging towards their position. Their default armament of two PTRS-41 14.5mm anti-materiel rifles are capable of two or three shotting the 222 armored car and the 251 halftrack, but are worth little even against the rear of anything other than the two aforementioned targets. The PTRS, is, however, a very effective anti-bunker weapon. With the DP upgrade purchased, Guards can choose to button an enemy vehicle, forcing it to a crawl and disabling its weapons (often the only thing capable of stopping an Axis vehicle rush). Late game, only their button ability makes their presence worthwhile, as they will either be rifle-grenaded to death, charged down by multiple Panzergrenadiere, or run over by an Axis vehicle using the Blitzkrieg ability. Attempting to use them to charge up to crewed weapons is an exercise in frustration, as both the PTRS rifle and the DP light machine gun do not fire on the move. Guards are just as "squishy" as Conscripts and Penal troops, and thus, charging Axis vehicles with them usually yields a squad of dead light infantry.
Are these facts in dispute? Are we fine with said facts? If you are, you have no concept of "balance", regardless of side. I think the Heer is cool as sh*t; I've spent over 40 hours researching them over the last two years for a realism mod I'm working on for vCoH. You know one of the few things I think is equally/slightly more cool? The Red Army, for pulling one of the most baffling turnaround victories (see: WWII) out of its rear end against all odds and all expectations. Hell, I took my screen name from a Red Army character in Call of Duty 2. That doesn't diminish the respect and awe I still have towards the German war machine.
If anyone wants to take politics and fanboyism into the mix, I'll take your head and shove it so far up your aft end that the lump in your throat will be your nose. Enough of this bollocks. Grow up and have a serious discussion. |
Bump. Feedback pls |
See the attached replay.
Includes examples of gimped Conscripts, terrible Axis micro that they pretty much get away with time and again, and losing to cheese. I mean, MASSIVE amounts of cheese. PGs, Panthers, Tigers, and a TA that lives only because of the glorious amount of bullsh*t surrounding it.
I was interested in trying out a new strat for use in pub team games; Con, Con, Con, Shock Motor Heavy Tactics, Shock, Engie, T2, ZiS-3, ZiS-3, T3, T-34/76, M5A1 Halftrack, T-34/76. My aim was to use the con repairs and HT to stay in the field, however, I didn't count on facing the four Axis players I did, who were likely on a voice chat program as their strategies all interlocked. I'll include links of some of the post-game stats. Note the ridiculous amount of losses I had--I had the honor of carrying the right half of City 17 as my teammate decided to drop after suiciding a few Penal squads..
This highlights some balance issues including the terrible DPS of Cons, considering their cost being equal to Grenadiers, T-34/76s being terrible "because they have ram", ZiS-3s being of questionable value when facing Axis tanks with far too much health considering their high armor values, and the absolutely ridiculous state of PGs when they now cost a whopping 280 Manpower and are hands down the best infantry in the game. The Tiger Ace also comes to mind, as does the lack of real Soviet "I win" buttons to dislodge Axis huehue bunker Sim Cities. And lastly, the ISU-152 and it's poor AT performance, or, accuracy in general (I use a Concrete Piercing round towards the end of the game that lands smack dab on top of a PG, and only kills two men--what??). In the case of the ISU, however, it was mentioned by PQ that it would be receiving some sort of buff to its AT capabilities next patch.
Enjoy.
Post-game scores
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I think the ZiS is fine--it just faces tanks with far too much health and armor. |
If those were engies with Carbines, that's no gusta. Give me my Boston accent and my Grease Guns, kthxbye. |
Since the ISU bounces so many of its shots...I'm failing to see how it'll be "God" nest patch. I mean, isn't it regarded as the "best call in to throw away a game with" right now? I think I'm the only person I've ever seen use it in team games...since I'm facing fleets of hyperdrive-powered Panthers with it, the ability to actually kill one or two would be fantastic. If we don't like the cannon's per-hit killing power, the reload could always go up by 1-2 seconds. It's 12 as it stands iirc. |
I'm sensing the Soviets, but slightly more competent.
I just want my Greasegun-armed Engineers. Partially because I live near Boston (dat accent), and partially because rata-tat-tat Greaseguns sounded effing fantastic in vCoH. |
You'd have to sacrifice quite a bit of historical accuracy if you want Italy as a competent faction in CoH2. Italian equipment and vehicles were low quality compared to the Allies, and very poor quality compared to Germany's. Italy's primary tank, portrayed accurately, would struggle against the current T-70. Their strongest tank was on-par with modern (1944) medium tanks, and was never very rare and not used by them.
Not only that, but by the time the game takes place (1944), Italy was in a state of civil war, with the fascist side (including their military) propped up entirely by Nazi Germany. By this point, German Soldiers considered the Italians useless for anything but anti-partisan duty.
Eh...I would venture to say that the German's opinion of them was probably correct, unless we're talking about Alpini or Paracadutisti.
The Italians would probably be more at home as a new commander with support options rather than a whole faction...unless we want to start flinging soaked cardboard-armored and 47mm cannon-armed tanks at the Soviets. |
First pic is of the Luchs, which is a recon tank, similar to the T-70, but faster.
The Sherman 76 had a much bigger turret, and it's actually a turret that was intended for use for an early experimental model Pershing.
I wonder if we'll get Easy 8s showing up in the game.
The Easy 8 would have a muzzle brake, sandskirts, and newer HVSS suspension--what we see are M4A3(76)W Shermans with the redesigned frontal glacis introduced in late 1944 that lacks the muzzle brake and has standard VVS-type suspension. Tl;dr, hopefully yes we will.
Inb4 Korean War expansion with M4A3(76)W HVSS tanks facing off against T-34 obr 1943s (e.g. T-34/85).
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The Panzer IV is probably the Ausf. H, because god forbid Relic would ever have to design a new model for the early marks. Other than coming right off the factory floor with a one-piece 8 cm frontal upper glacis and Schurzen already attached, the Ausf. H is pretty much an Ausf. G. The two are practically the same if the G has the 1943-issued armor kit (3 cm frontal upper glacis bolt-on applique armor, Schurzen plates and mounting brackets--most crews just mounted the turret Schurzen and went without the hull skirting on the Western/Italian front(s)).
The PaK looks like the PaK 40 recycled from the Ostheer.
The "Pershings", as mentioned, are (as I stated) M4A3(76)W Shermans mounting the new T23 turret--stripped off of the prototype Pershing, it was enlarged as to fit the new M1A1c 76mm cannon.
The "cartoony" P-47D-25+ (iirc the D-25 was the first model to use the new bubble canopy) is painted up in a commonly seen paint scheme that's used on one of the restored P-47s flying around today. I can't remember the squadron name, though. The bright paint was a "thing" among the Allied fliers, as they had pretty much total air superiority by the time they invaded France, so there was no disadvantage to splattering as much bright paint on your plane as possible to avoid twitchy gunners unloading into you, thinking you were a Fw 190 (in the case of P-47s).
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