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I'm only a half-decent WM player in vcoh, if even that (to be frank, my support weapon micro is pitiful, if anything, I'd build 4 Volks and try to make due with that). But really, yes, the MG42 takes a while to pin. Well...I don't get it, I'm an infantry player and when someone builds 2 or 3 MG42s, it's an absolute bitch to dislodge them from their current position--and "go to the other side of the map" isn't valid when most OH players I run into have an MG bunker up by the time I reach wherever it is. OK, the Maxim has a ridiculous setup/teardown time, but I usually pay attention to the moment that MG starts packing and either move an infantry unit in on the other side of its arc, or keep moving to end up outside of his new setup zone with the unit he was trying to hit with the MG. It's not rocket science. As for the MG42, again, there are some issues, but properly used, I don't see much of an issue with them.
Granted, I'm terrible with crews, so my MG42 usually ends up being useless in firefights, but set up BEHIND a grenadier or pioneer they'll work just fine if you aren't caught with your wiener schnitzel hanging out in the breeze. MG42s deployed in depth to cover one another are devastating. Grens with LMGs in support make it even sillier. I've lost count of the number of times, hell even in team games, where I initiate a 4 squad con flank and get caught by 1, 2, at one point 7 MGs that were just dumped out. Does it need some improving? Yes, probably. But not that drastically. I'd still take an MG42 over a Maxim any day. |
True. My roots are from DoW2. Came too late to that party.
I meant no offense--however, Riflemen, ATGs, and Shermans was just about everything an American player needed to 'rek Axis skrubz' (surprisingly, when not facing gimmicks, Engie, Con, Con, Con, Con, WSC, ATG, (optional 2d ATG), Tankovy Command, T-34/76, T-34/76 works fairly decently. It also leaves room to throwing Penals, Guards, or Shock Troops. Gets destroyed by doctrine-centered gimmicks or the usual rush VPs -> spam bunkers silliness that permeates team games. Yeah, great, I'm getting the WSC anyhow, but the ZiS-3 might as well be shooting spitballs at the bunkers (the T-34 fares better -.-). Plus, flanking is negated by their normal-MG42-sized arcs of fire (vCoH MG bunkers had greatly restricted arcs of fire, limiting their use unless spammed even more than they are now) and the fact that Grenadiers cost the exact same as Cons (MG bunker + riflenade = possible squad wipe from afar). Flamers are also next to useless against bunkers, and the demo charges cost (iirc) 90 munitions? Throw in the lack of actually useful Conscript-specific doctrine unlocks (Rapid Deployment, Defensive Operations--ahh the says of SIS strats on Angoville) and the fact that we have to buy DLCs to gain acces to building options that are FUNDAMENTAL to CoH gameplay (sandbags, wire, tank traps, and mines--hell, the Germans don't even get their own free 'cover' to build.) Did they forget how to use a shovel or something?
Gah.
My niche was as an early-mid game US player; my infantry micro is my strongpoint. Unfortunately, CoH2 promotes doctrinal super vehicles/arty spam that's even worse than fighting a Vet3 axis army--and the infantry mechanics are so ridiculous I might as well order my Conscripts to charge the enemy and start clubbing them to death with their rifle butts--it might be more effective.
As someone who doesn't really touch T-70s as I find them useless without late game utility (lack of .50 cal dakka, no minedrop to troll PaKs, PaKs coming in from an off-map location anyway, a P4/Stug coming out shortly afterwords even if I've played well), that's where the 'get PaK, get Shrecks, ???, profit' reply came from. |
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Looks like Nullist never touched vCoH.
Your PaK is your primary AT, your shrecks are along for the ride to counter flankers. Trying to crush every vehicle in your path with handheld AT (a formerly very, very squishy, very soft counter) will either:
A) Have you shot all to hell and forced to retreat.
B) Your PG blob hits critical mass and can run through four T-34s and a pair of Maxims and kill some/most of them while losing 1-4 men (micro be damned, this happens to me far too often--in the context of a 4v4 with your headset leaping off of your face with the TS shouting, arty going everywhere, and blobs of PGs and Panthers roaming the map, it's easier than you'd think to lose units).
Just...no, Shrecks shouldn't be a hardcounter to every damned vehicle in the game. Why has Relic made ATGs such useless things that EVERYONE overlooks them? Rarely if ever do I see a PaK. Even rarer, a ZiS-3. Y'all know what the 'Anti-Tank' in Anti-Tank Gun stands for, right? |
Thread: Flames18 Nov 2013, 18:21 PM
Since Pio MP40s are only SLIGHTLY inferior to K98s at long range (DPS wise) and better inside 30m (see: the max range of the MP40), I'd just say buy a metric butt ton of Pios and ignore the Flammenwerfer. The MP40 DPS thing is also why Assgrens just kill everything they look at. Stick them in cover and duke it out with enemy squads at extreme range--and beat them--for extra lols.
Combat Engineers, despite being more useless than Cons most of the time (though they cost the same to produce, take up the same popcap, and cost 30 mp to reinforce vs 20 for cons??? ) will need a ROKS-3 to be anything short of useless cannon fodder that can throw out a demo charge or two assuming you haven't wasted all of your munitions frantically trying to AT nade/Molotov the mass of FHTs and Assgrens/Pgrens (respectively) most OH players seem to zerg these days.
TL; DR, Pios don't need flamers, Engies do. OH trumps the SU in the small arms department, hence I think flamers beating the stuffing out of OH infantry units is just fine. |
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As an RGD coder in vCoH (CoH 1) these new DLCs are a slap in the face. I could come up with better and more balanced doctrines in ~5 minutes; hell, I HAVE come up with better doctrines (soon to be released) for my own vCoH mod. This crap isn't fun to play, and it's countering OP with OP--same crap that didn't work in CoHO--oh derp, Rifleman camo? Well, let's have your Volksgrenadiers give you resources when they die--in fact, you gain resources (and especially fuel) by simply suiciding volks.
Arcadey (more than vCoH) gameplay, poor map design (every point generates resources, which means it's largely impossible to come back from getting pushed into your base by some gimmick strat right out of the gate), poor teching design for the Soviets (only mitigated by the new Defensive commander for them--part of the reason I swear by it, two conscripts and a dushka is actually useful, and you get that lovely 120mm mortar without having to tech to T2--you can splat down a Spec. Rifle Command and skip to T-34s, keeping up with the horde of ONLYUSEmeVET3ARMY 'tards/bunker-rushers with Opel Blitz' and Tigers out the arse), these new DLCs that absolutely break balance, and most of all the insistence to disallow modding in order to SELL this absolutely broken crap, absolutely turns this game off for me.
That being said, it's great fun to take a dump in some wallet-warrior's cornflakes with a well-executed Conscript flank, CoH1 style. Herp, what MG42 bruv? |
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So, up to page three the argument (that I can see) proposed by Nullist is "Conscripts are shit, everyone knows it, but they're just there to drain your MP until you can pump out Snipers/initiate GuardsSpam.exe".
-removes gloves from hands, folds neatly, throws them onto the ground in a wadded heap-
Dammit man, you're saying it's fine that the Soviets have NO RELIABLE NON-DOCTRINAL INFANTRY to use as a general all-rounder all game? I'm supposed to rely on Snipers and SU-85s for 80% of my gameplay needs? WHAT? It seems to me that the Ostheer gets the best of both worlds from WH/PE, and that the Soviets are some mutant US/PE AIDS baby or somesuch. (Also...IRL, weren't the Soviets known for a metric butt ton of...wait for it...hold on...INFANTRY?)
The only strat that I've seen work, even half reliably, in PUB 2v2 matches, is taking every card you can get for Maxims and cranking out 3-4 of them, and microing the hell out of them. Why even have conscripts if they're so utterly useless outside of the 10 minute mark. What other unit becomes absolutely null and void besides the Scout Car (also Soviet) and maybe, MAYBE on occasion the Sd Kfz 222?
I mean, my god, I've had game after game of running RINGS around German players with downright pathetic micro, but their units just sit there and faceroll everything that comes in their direction. It seems that the Soviets require excellent micro, great timing, an outstanding tech plan since once you commit, you can't go back/build other counters, and then you need to shuffle around the opposition and kind of jab them in the side with your pointer finger and go 'neener neener neener' while you desperately try to crank out a shock unit to counter his equally priced, generalist unit that can do most most everything yours can, only better.
Meanwhile on the Axis side of the fence, you now have Osttruppen for kids that want to eat a bowl of Lucky Charms AND win matches at the same time, and the general winning strat while playing as the Ostheer is "I POINT MY BIG METAL THING AT YOU, YOU DIE NAOWWWWWW".
W.o micro, Gr 34 > w.e mark 19something 82mm mortar
W.o micro, MG42 ~= Maxim--a toss up
W.o micro, Grens TOPLEL > Cons
W.o micro, Pios ~= Engineers
W.o micro, PaK 40 > Zis
Do you see where the issue comes from?
The Soviets are:
1) Hindered by a teching system that effectively locks out half of their army because of absolutely insane building costs and build times.
2) Left with no 'basic'/'generalist' unit (infantry) with which to fight the enemy for the DURATION of most matches.
3) Forced to face units with the same or nearly the same prices with far greater cost returns unless something REALLY freaky happens.
4) Are restricted to doctrinal choices (some of which are P2W) in order to obtain elite/specialist infantry that DON'T suck massive dinosaur dong.
5) Require, in general, a much better comprehension of the game, counters, teching options, and luck to *reliably* win matches.
The arguments I see posed are like the Luftwaffe kiddies playing War Thunder: "Well, that's sad that the P-47/F6F-3/P-51/F4F-4 are pretty much broken and unplayable, you need to use the maybe two viable planes in the American line to counter us--and then we'll complain that the P-40 and A-20 are OP!"
Why, as the Soviets, am I so restricted in what I can use in order to have even the slimmest chance of doing damn near ANYTHING, when I've engaged in flat out Pioneer spam with friends in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4 and just absolutely ground the opposing Soviets--regardless of skill--into the dirt.
Spamming Grenadiers is even funnier! Outside of the VERY opening rounds of the game, you can get LMGs pretty much whenever you want. Grens w. LMGs and PaKs -> [whatever armor you want] and you're golden. The Soviets (apparently, in complete balance and in a totally acceptable state) need Conscripts, Penals/Shock Troops/Guards, Snipers, Clown Cars, ZiS guns (on the occasion they don't fail miserably to have any effect, regardless of micro), T-34s for ram, wherin they're automatically considered disposable and leave a huge gap for the Soviets in terms of generalist medium armor, SU-85s, and the kitchen sink in order to dent an Ostheer player's happy plans of a world where an Opel Blitz spouts from every field and Tigers and Panthers run wild and free, with catnip in excess for everyone.
/rant
EDIT: Seeing as I haven't finished reading all of the thread's contents, this argument is open to change from myself. However, as for now (until posted otherwise) it stands, as is. |
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I don't mean to be nitpicky, but the inability to create control groups (as Control + 1-9 is a common thing for spawning units as of now) is a mild pain in the rear end considering I've played CoH1 since release with control groups, right up into CoH2. Would it at all be possible to find a workaround for this? Or, if not, is there a way to create control groups without using Control + 1-9? |
Lot of hyperbole=bias.
Never said I wasn't. Doesn't mean what I said is any less/more valid. |
Having played vCoH for years, been a part of the Europe in Ruins modding team along with PQ (what's up man?  ) and begun modding my own mod for CoH1 ('Operation Avalanche'), I feel that I have enough insight to simply jump into this. First of all, points I feel are relevant:
Conscripts = Pseudo-Riflemen. They get Indenciary Grenades and Sticky Bombs from the PE/US respectively and can upgrade to what are essentially BARs with doctrine choices.
RU as a whole is in fact a pretty much reskinned US faction with some 'oooohhh pretty' thrown in; the T70 is a Faghound/Greyhound mashup, more closely related to the former but almost equivilant to the latter with the .50 cal upgrade (AI capacity). We have the return of the ATG but now instead of the useful AP rounds, we have the absolutely infuriating-to-play-against-lelbarrage ability. The T-34/76 is the vanilla Sherman, and the 85 is the upgunned Sherman--why it was made doctrinal we'll probably never know, but I can't say I support the change. Guards are a 'meh' replacement for Rangers with pretty pathetic AT capability (short of countering some T2 light armor--ooohh scary!) and Shock Troops are the result of the fusion of Rangers and Commandos. Penals....I don't get it, Guards, the most elite troops in the Red Army, get DP-28s (great), but suicide troops who were 'given only 100 grams of vodka a day' and were formed from dissidents and the poorly trained or disabled were also 'some of the best troops out there' 'when well led', and get the best rifle weapons in the game (the SVT)--and in fact, rifles that took ADDITIONAL TRAINING to use properly and were sparingly issued even to Guards units--yet still get WALKED ON by Grenadiers in 1:1 troop count ratios, even with Penals having to cost 380-freakin-Manpower? Logic (tm).
The Germans are a horrific mashup of PE/WM, with Panzergrenadiers being a port of Assault Grenadiers/Stormtroopers with the capability of upgrading to Tank Hunters Tactics Tankbuster Grenadiers ('Double AT Efforts') that can bundle nade everything in their path and with Vet2, waltz through four upgraded (PPSh) Conscript squads with impunity and terminate them all. T1 Grenadiers that cost the same as Conscripts? Yes please! You don't even need Pios to bunker down a-la CoHO.
Alright, general balance grips over with, to the point. The MG42 change was unneeded. I myself used the SIS strat in vCoH (5 Rifles -> BARs -> map control and hopefully a fast Sherman) and, seeing the similarities between the games and factions, have taken to 4 Conscripts -> T3 -> work from there. Being forced to essentially back-tech to the WSC (Supp. Wep. Kompaneya) for proper anti-support spam is tolerable, but the fact that small arms have been tweaked to were I could bludgeon a Grenadier to death with a spork faster than Conscripts could shoot one to death makes pulling off a successful flank less rewarding. With buildings in their current state it's a pain to dislodge MGs without Molotovs, pulling the 'dance around the building forcing him to pack up and deploy endlessly while I slowly DPS him to death' trick no longer works. At all. However, with Molotovs, Flamers aren't needed at all so I guess it isn't much of an issue. The point stands, however, that MG42s can be easily turned around to smother a flank because they A) swivel ridiculously fast compared to vCoH, you can't run ACROSS an MG arc and keep your troops just ahead of his barrel, B) MGs no longer prioritize units closer to the center of their arc, only units closer to them, meaning that less micro is needed to select targets, and C) the amount of damage units take while Pinned seems to have been increased, meaning that you can't keep his focus on one squad that you tried to bait him with. In fact, it's ridiculously, LAUGHABLY easy to instantly pin multiple flanking squads that would have normally pulled off a successful flank. Then as soon as T2 hits, Assault Grenadiers are out with DERPflammenhalftracks and all bets are off if you don't have Guards out already. Not to mention that Soviet anti-MG weapons got hit with the nerf bat and the Maxim's vehicle-behavior ebps bug still hasn't been resolved means that Maxim crews still go 'lel suppression, IDGAF!'.
My honest suggestion would be to revert the changes to the MG42 and Soviet crewed weapons and instead address issues regarding the Soviet Sniper teams, the M3A1, the ebps issue with the Maxim's behavior, and possibly the effects of the Doom Mortars.
Then move on to more pressing issues like how easy it is to spam Opel Blits trucks and turtle to having four+ Tigers out at the same time.
If 80% of the playerbase plays as the Ostheer currently, I find it damn hard to believe that the Soviets are gloriously OP, or even were, with 80% of the playerbase playing as the Germans since the game came out. |
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