ok, let him keep rebuying the game. and Relic should keep banning him.
He continually has to start from 0 and Relic gets more $. Win/win for the player base. |
Actually it would. It has become ridiculous in the US and the PC Police are out in droves. Its gotten to the point where people go after books, blog posts, tv shows....they would go after a game in a heart beat if they knew about it. Sadly people lack the education and the discipline to understand history these days nor do people understand context.
Side note: it would be cool if they made the American Army more diverse in the same terms as the British, Russians, Germans. The Germans have Ostruppen that represent their Eastern Allies why couldn't the Americans have a 442nd Combat Team call in?
Heck, not just the 442nd (a unit made up of all Japanese American soldiers and immortalized in the movie "Go For Broke"). Why not model the voices after the Paragon Plattoon (Paragon Pictures) with Brooklyn, Midwest, Texan, Southern, etc. accents? |
I totally disagree that including black characters in a historically plausible way is politically incorrect. Thats essentially the same as saying any film about slavery is politically incorrect.
It happened, nobody is saying it was right.
That said, as others mentioned, its understandable that they removed the black RETs as races in general are under represented in the game so to randomly include black RET squads as the soul attempt at showing racial diversity during the war is clumsy to say the least.
Could you just imagine what Relic would have done with the Soviet campaign if they specifically modeled Mongolian/Siberian units? (Shudder) |
When politicial correctness reaches a Ww2 game. In reality Blacks were heavily discriminated in the American society and army. (Some exclusions like the Red tails but even that screams for racism because puttIng a unit together just on Skin color?)
Are osttruppen properly Modelled with east/slavic faces?
What you are seeing is the product of segregation, a subset of discrimination. In that sense units like the Tuskeegee airmen is part of the same, not an exception.
African Americans were drafted like everyone else, and many enlisted, like everyone else. But they filled more than their share of the support personnel like transportation and grave digging. But some combat units were formed like the 333rd Field Artillery Battalion that served with the 101st at Bastogne, the 332nd Fighter Group (the Red Tails), and the 78th, 758th and 761st Tank Battalions.
The combat units I think shared an interesting history. They were often put together for political reasons ("we have to have some black units to help keep the black population patriotic and pro-war effort, etc. etc.") but held out of combat longer than white units because there were suspicions of their ability to fight. But they often consisted of a higher caliber, on average, of men than the regulear white combat units. These combat units were rarer, and white soldiers could volunteer for the Airborne, Rangers, Mountain, etc. And the units were often held back from combat until well after they were formed they had years of training. When combat losses made the need for trained and equipped units a priority and they were finally sent into combat they performed very well. |
Nice catch.Also elite troops commanders face looks like some hollywood guy too.
Actually I think the OKW commander looks like Graham Norton:
|
Avny, the Arracourt engagement is certainly not a suitable benchmark to measure reinforcement strategies. You might want to read up on the two Panzerbrigaden in question. In fact, I don't think Arracourt illustrates much of anything, apart from the fact that formations that can barely operate their vehicles individually, let alone fight as a unit are not up to the task of mounting an impromptu attack in limited visibility.
Seriously, if you want to read up on US vs German reinforcement policies etc, I'd recommend you take a look at van Crevelds oldie but goldie "Fighting power". Not that I exactly agree with all his conclusions mind you, but its a good introduction.
I was responding to training.... Arracourt illustrates that it isn't about the kit, but about the crews.
Though on other forums I always liked the "apologists" for German performance in that battle ("well the US had CAS", "the germans were in disarray and not well supplied".) War is not meant to be fair. Much allied effort and materiele went into ensuring that if combat engagements happened they would as unfair in their favor as possible. |
Ultimately though, they are all just pieces of armor.
Popular history (of the TV kind) which unfortunately seems to have a large impact on the histography of the general public always seems to neglect that oh so important training of the crews.
Now I do not dare speak about British or American training, I simply do not have the knowledge.
But looking at the Russian and German methods of training (up to the fall of 1944) the difference is staggering.
Compare the good combat ranges with moving targets at Panzerschule 1 with the haphazard training at the Soviets training regiments and I suspect the "paradox" of the Soviets having quite good tanks but still staggering looses shouldn't come as a surprise.
(Yes there are other factors)
The US troops that landed in Europe were well trained in the use of their vehicles but, for the most part, inexperienced in combat. And the Bocage was not the best place to learn, or for that matter, the place to learn the right lessons. Performance in some units no doubt suffered from attrition combined with the resupply doctrine of sending single available troops willy nilly to undermanned frontline units. But the trained troops, with experience, were certainly a formidable force, as were any reinforcements that survived their early combat experiences.
The Wehrmacht had a different reinforcement strategy. Whole new units were created and sent to the front. I believe their performance and readiness suffered greatly regardless of the bright, shiny, new pieces of Krupp steel uber machines. At Arracourt US armored forces soundly defeated new German formations equipped with Panthers. |
Avny, I've had conversations with a few people of that persuasion before (really just a handful). When you tell them you're a historian this usually brings out a veritable deluge of talking points to challenge the supposed mainstream narrative on the matter (and you as their agent or representative of sorts), and then you better bring alot of time, if you actually feel like engaging in that sort of exchange.
Now in my experience, for some its an idée fixe really and as such borders on the psychopathological, and there is very little one can actually do discoursively, as they will just fundamentally distrust the alleged comprehensive propaganda apparatus/scholarship on the matter. Mind you, there is not even primarily necessarily a conscious effort or anything of the sort at play, ie. an underlying desire to marginalise the extent of the Shoah or cast the Nazis in a more favourable light (even though it usually is), at least in one case it was definetly a honestly held conviction that the historical profession at large including yours truly is being duped by a gigantic falsification set in motion to smear the reputation of the German people and thereby keep them in subservience in perpetuity.
The "common sense" approach, occams razor etc., ie. my pointing out that there were dozens of archival meters documenting the KL/VL infrastructure, deportations and murders etc, that I had actually seen them and worked with them, and that it appears implausible for all of them to be falsified simply falls on deaf ears, as this has become an article of faith. Even the really obvious empirical indicators, such as a large part of the Jewish demographics being, well, gone after the war, is quite simply dismissed.
With actual antisemites of the more rabid kind/Nazis, Holocaust denial of course appears fairly amusing if not schizophrenic. After all, why would an individual of that persuasion not embrace such a course of action? An optimist might think that at least at a subconscious level, the enormity of the matter is somehow understood regardless.
Anyways, the point of my suada, you cannot, and will not convince some people as they lack the state of mind to engage in rational discourse in the first place, and this cannot and should not be the task of historiography anyways. I sure as hell would not even try unless I liked the individual in question.
You are right in everything you say with one caveat.... I still think it is important to take the time to counter the arguments. Not because you will change their mind. You won't. But because of the unseen and unheard from audience that might be reading the exchange. |
There are just too many anecdotal accounts of tank vs tank engagements from personnel in the field which suggest the historical revision through researching statistics doesn't quite reveal the whole story here. However, the official casualty statistics the speaker presents, if they are to be believed accurate, do warrant closer inspection of the 'death trap' and ineffiacy of the Sherman's gun hearsay.
Different story at engagement ranges in the East vs bocage however, where the advantage of the Panther's LL and Tiger's 88 could be used of advantage, especially in defence as is evidenced both by anecdotal and statistical evidence. Lots there to review.
Thanks for posting the link.
The problem of anecdotal evidence is the very reason that the statistical studies were done by the various militaries during and after the war. That the Shermans were "deficient" was already a story reported on by the New York papers in Dec. 1944 (or thereabouts).
Also remember that every serviceman has a bias when it comes to equipment. To a GI he Germans tanks are obviously good mechanically, but then he only saw the ones he was fighting, and and he is fighting them because they were operational. A GI is not auditing the operational percentages of a Panzer divisions motorpool. Likewise, they remember each shell that they see bounce off its target much much better than the one that actually penetrated (as they believed it should). That isn't unlike our own experiences with RNG when playing COH. We remember the detrimental RNG far better than the helpful RNG. That is just human nature. |
Different sources give nubers from 274cm to 3m, so it varies from 10 to 30 cm giving about 10% more height. Also p4 is shaped prism-like while sherman is shaped more cube-like and thus much easier to spot and hit. Mind that for example t-34 was onlt 245cm heigh while stug less than 2 meters in smallest versions.
I recall that one of the differences is aspect ratio. The Sherman is narrower, particularly in relation to its height, than the German tanks. So it LOOKS higher than it is. |