It’s not a bonus, it’s a tradeoff for not having high armoured units and thus being unable to bounce shots.
Understand the factions before you comment on their balance.
Like the Soviets (nondoctrinally), you mean? The USF are not "unable to bounce shots", unless we're talking about against Panthers or other dedicated AT, in which case P4s are similarly vulnerable to USF Jacksons. USF have middling armour values across the board.
Are you going to tell me the USF's vehicle moving accuracy and access to nondoctrinal launched smoke isnt a bonus, either?
Their vehicle crews are a bonus, regardless of your weird attempt to deny it, especially since they allow USF vehicles to rapidly remove engine criticals.
Don't insult me. |
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Fair point, I neglected to think about PF, and given their prominent place right now, It's more than likely you'll be facing them. |
This unit is just bad design IMO.
Molotov should seriously get looked at. Personally I see a lot of Katyushas. Assault Officer is fine, it's just not very popular because it's a close range unit while Tommies and Brens are for long range.
The B4 is absolutely TERRIBLE design. An RNG cannon that can wipe out a medium tank in one shot... or do absolutely nothing because of poor accuracy. Very fun. Very interactive. |
USF is designed around crew repairs. Requiring a 2nd RE being built means you spend mp building it that could go on another unit, just so the Pershing can function normally. 2 REs is not the same as 2 Pios.
How is it not the same as two pios? USF vehicle crews/repairs is a faction bonus, you usually benefit by not needing to build an extra RE, and still don't with the Pershing, if you are happy to repair with just one RE, or make use of another vehicle crew. You've got the option to get a second RE if you're unhappy with those two scenarios. You're not suddenly crippled because you have that option.
What's the repair speed of a vet3 RE when compared to a single Vet3 Pioneer, with and without Minesweeper?
EDIT: Actually, wait, yeah. RE's don't cost 250mp. They cost 200. |
I think the general consensus that the pershing suffers from anything above 1v1 due to increase armour and at presence.
Likewise, using your vehical crews to repair your pershing risk increases considerably every gamemode from that point due to increase presence of units and especially artillery. Also I hate sacrificing field presence.
Getting fresh rear echelons isn't too much of a problem its just feel abit unnatural . Ill be interested to try sanders trick through if I can get any armor on field.
Agreeable. The issue with it having a Vehicle crew is that it will then allow you to make multiple Pershings. Unless it has a special "Pershing crew" that counts towards the heavy tank limit. I wonder if that's been considered? The tank clearly needs a bit of a look at.
OST needs another pio by default for any tank in the late-game, it's not specifically tied to having a Tiger or not. USF, on the other hand, needs a RE purely for Pershing. This practically adds 250MP cost to Pershing itself. When you compare it to mediums USF can field that doesn't need this extra cost, Pershing isn't a viable choice.
Although, viability of pop abuse is off-topic, I'd like to talk about it, too since you've mentinoed it.
Pop abuse is problematic in a lot of ways. Sure, you get more vehicles by doing it but every time you need to reinforce your infantry you need to decrew at least one of your tanks to do so, which effectively decreases your active combat force throughout the game and adds extra micro tax. Depending on how short the intervals between reinforcements, extra micro tax from decrew/recrews can be disastrous in late-game unless you've 200APM or something.
I'm not sure if "Pop abuse" is something that can really be solved adequately. I believe the balance team have decided that it's "part of the faction". The only way around it, really, is to give each vehicle a bespoke crew with the same popcost as the tank... at which point you're inviting people to murder their crews to use REs in their place, or some other exploity way to retain this benefit.
I love how people just assume USF has 250mp lying around just to make the 640mp 230fuel tank with 270 armour repair on time.
You're doing this thing where you're implying that's A: All REs are good for, and B: Somehow this investment the USF are making is absurd compared to the 200mp (And potentially 30muni) investment that Ostheer arguably always must make?
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Uhh, Grenadiers don't have 0.7 target size at vet one, which is the veterancy that Conscripts have 1.09 target size.
Unless you're trying to compare vet 0 cons to vetted Grenadiers for some reason? |
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Im not sure if Molotovs, Katyushas,or Assault Officers are all that rarely seen. Katyushas especially are quite popular, they're the quickest nondoc arty to actually land (some of) its rockets, especially from close range.
Relief infantry and Rapid conscription are barely abilities. They both need totally reworking, encouraging the loss of models is not good design... Especially for Ostheer, where for the loss of six Grens/Pioneers/Pgrens you get Ostruppen of all things.
USF offmap smokes are not seen because USF already have the best access to smoke in the game. They generally just don't need an offmap for it. |
Single RE is never enough for Pershing to work efficiently. REs, for some reason, has only 10.5 repair speed at vet3. That's 30.5 seconds of repair time for just 2 ATG shots that'll most likely penetrate Pershing's 270 armor (especially if we consider it's late-game and ATGs are vetted up). For comparison 2 vet0 pios with minesweeper upgrade have 15.2 repair speed, meaning, they can repair a Tiger that took 2 ATG shots in 21 seconds. 2 vet3 pios w/ minesweepers and 5-men can repair it in 11 seconds but that's a very rare occurrence, of course.
Pershing either needs its crew back or some form of crew repair ability (Slow but full repairs like Soviets or fast but limited repairs like OKW/UKF) for free or for a small munition cost. The need to buy second RE is a big disadvantage for Pershing as of now.
USF are able to wrangle their other vehicle's crews for repairs, though, and USF having a second RE is no different to OST having a second pioneer, is it? REs are also able to double as a minor AT platform when given Zooks.
The population space required for the second RE is even less a concern for USF, as well, given their ability to decrew (All other) vehicles to temporarily increase their effective popcap. |
What one has to keep in mind when talking about build orders is that they are not "one size fit all" solutions.
The mode, the map, the opponent's faction, the opponent units, the preferred style (offensive/defensive...) are all factor that make a Specific BO more or less effective.
This is the thing, really. Arent clown cars still pretty good against OKW? Assuming they haven't built a Raketen for some reason. |
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The T-70 being dominant in whichever meta isn't really relevant by itself.
At what point was it buffed to the strength its at now? Even if Soviets had UKF tier infantry they'd still use the T70 as it stands currently. It's just that good of an unit. |
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