You should probably play the game before posting.
Agreed. From testing in cheatmod, and after reviewing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1638665511 the Jackson pens the P4 every single time at any range at vet 0, has a minimal chance at vet 0 to bounce at max range against a vet 2 P4 or a P4J, and penetrates the P4J every single time at vet (2? 3? i forget when it gets the pen bonus) at all ranges. Similar story with the Panther when the Jackson is using HVAP. |
So the Maxim deals 0.0065 suppression per bullet which is 3.25% the required amount to suppress a unit on grey cover. It has a rate of fire of 7.2 rounds per second at long range which means it will suppress a squad after about 4.3 seconds. The maxim has a long range burst length of 4.5 seconds which means that really under only perfect conditions will the maxim be able to suppress a squad at long range in one burst.
The MG42 deals 0.012 suppression per bullet which is 6% the required amount to suppress a unit on grey cover. It has a rate of fire of 14.4 rounds per second at long range which means it will suppress a squad after roughly 1.15 seconds. Burst duration is only 1.63 at long range compared to the maxim at 4.5, but it doesn't matter since it suppresses a squad in 1/4 the time.
As an extra, the vickers under the same conditions should take roughly 1.725 seconds to suppress at the same range. This is assuming the vickers does not outright kill the model its shooting at though, because if it does(which happens semi frequently) the MG will cease firing and attempt to acquire a new target model which obviously cuts the suppression speed.
Obviously this is all just assuming controlled conditions at max range with the enemy squad in neutral grey cover, but it should demonstrate how much better the MG42 (or even vickers) is compared to the maxim. It's not just a little worse, the maxim is just plain bad in terms of suppression.
From some cursory testing I did in cheatmod, it doesn't seem to work out quite like this in practice, though. I don't know if there's something else going on with the numbers, or if there was something wrong with my methodology of "Put conscript squad at max range of MG and switch MG to 'enemy'"
It generally took just over a second for the MG42 to suppress the squad, but the Maxim only took 2-2.5~ seconds every time i tested it. Suppressed within a single burst every time, with a reasonable amount of the burst to go.
The main thing noticable was that the maxim takes significantly longer to pin, suppression certainly didnt seem to take four and a half seconds, however.
Clarifications: MG was replaced with a fresh MG every test, as was the conscript squad, to avoid issues with lingering suppression, or the MG being mid-burst.
I'd urge others to do a more thorough examination, perhaps I made a mistake somewhere, but it really doesn't feel as though the Maxim takes the amount of time it's "meant to" to suppress. |
the only option imo doesnt justify balance defying. other options could or should be added, doesnt change the fact that when compared to the molitov the lava nade is beyond better. all the same benefits with no drawbacks (aside from only getting 2 lava nades per 3 molitovs)
frankly i think sturms should have the lava nade AND a bonus against cover/garrisons, and volks should get smoke and a normal nade- then get access to the flame nade via the specific upgrade path in firestorm (the one that removes their access to the flame nade...)
im not denying the ability to have an alternative to the flamethrower i find issue with the saturation and superiority of it.
as for the mg thing its self evident when using either of the mentioned MGs. im not currently in a position to provide the video proof however.
You're advocating that Sturms, an already overloaded unit, be the only source of anti-cover/garrison that OKW get early on though. OKW are already punished heavily for losing their Engineer squad, requiring them to deal with any sort of cover/garrisons early means they're basically fucked six ways to sunday if their Sturms die.
Im not sure what the point of an "anti cover bonus" would be on a squad that's encouraged to close to point blank, in any case.
You're also overstating the number of drawbacks that molotov even has. Once Cons hit vet 2, which really doesn't take forever, Molotovs have the singular downside of a shorter range than the Incendiary. (Assuming we aren't counting teching requirement) They're otherwise arguably better, given that there's no delay for them to burst, and conscripts have a nondoctrinal sprint ability, that gives them the mobility to get to where they need to be to toss the Molotov.
You also need to consider that Conscripts, other than a window after Volks get STGs, otherwise beat Volks in equal scenarios. Volks' saving grace in infantry combat is their Incendiary helping them push enemies out of strong positions.
Finally: Volks don't even have Incendiaries out of the gate. It requires that they build an SWS truck, giving you an early window where OKW can basically do nothing if you decide to sit behind green cover, or enter a building. You as soviet even have several options early on to provide force multipliers/deal with cover/garrisons. You can build your Mortar (or even Zis) practically immediately, and maxims (Though Maxims have deathloop issues, obviously) |
The molitov is slower to throw and has less range. This combo means that cons will take more damage using it. The later is also a massive boon because it's much easier to get a lava made off when charging an Mg frontally. This is especially problematic for both Maxims and vickers who struggle to suppress. Another boon to the extra range is the ability to deny cover from cover, something that usually won't happen with the molitov.
Another HUGE thing is that the molitov costs 80mp and 10 fuel which more than offsets the 10mu extra the lava made costs.
For no extra tech cost and increased range and faster throw perhaps the lava nade should have more of a downside than 10mu.
Matter of fact not being able to frontally burn down mgs would be a more than welcome change...
Again, soviets have access to Flamethrowers as well as their Molotovs, whereas the Incendiary grenade is literally the only flame tool that OKW have. It's understandable that its better than the molotov.
Im not overly convinced that Volks can "Frontally charge" an MG and get an incendiary off. I'd like to see an example. |
He's USF. USF stock light AT mines are rare because you have to lay them with rear echelons. To stop Panther dives just make Jacksons and keep kiting the Panther. It's really not that hard. Even one Jackson can 1v1 a Panther if the Jackson is on the defensive.
REs arent exactly overloaded with duties though, and the light AT mines are very cheap due to their temporary nature. Surely an USF player would be able to find some RE man-hours to get mines down? There's also the M20 mine, though as far as I know the M20 isnt exactly "meta" at the moment. (And as evidenced with the 251, vehicle-placed mines arent hugely popular)
Also: Yeah, correct usage of the Jackson can ward off Panthers, especially given that the Panther is likely to have to go through Rifles in order to reach the Jackson, risking a snare. |
I think the problem lies more on Ostruppen and 5men gren than the rest of the list. Ostruppen need some kind of debuff like a movement penalty out of cover that could go once Vet1 or T4 is built so they can't swarm early on. 5men gren could simply lose their pfaust once upgraded to be less of a braindead upgrade. And I'll move shrek to T2 and leave Pgrens where they are.
Instead of BP3+20 fuel, I'll increase P4 cost by 10 fuel giving more room for the Ostwind and Stug.
Movement speed penalties for Ostruppen is pretty dumb,and unprecedented, honestly. Making them buildable instead of a callin (as all units should be, in my opinion) and slowing down their building so they don't reach critical mass as quickly would be a better solution. Their combat performance is not their issue.
Removing Fausts from 5man Grens is kind of an absurd nerf. It does nothing to what people complain about regarding 5man Grens, while making them completely defenseless vs light vehicles, and obviously vs heavier ones. Reducing or removing, dependent on how much a difference it really makes, their RA bonus would be better.
I think Pgrens primarily cause issues due to their synergy with the currently overperforming (in 1v1) Ostruppen. I'm not sure they particularly need moving, nor their Shreck upgrade. Feel free to provide a counterargument for this.
What's the logic on pushing back BP3, anyway? Is it widely considered that OST get their mediums too quickly? I wasnt really aware of it being particularly faster or cheaper than other armies.
Im not sure why the OST sniper specifically needs its ROF at vet toning down, either. I'm testing it in cheatmod right now, and while a vet3 OST sniper fires more quickly than a vet3 Soviet sniper, it really doesnt seem to be egregiously faster.
What are the winrates like for Ostruppen and VSL builds, anyway? They certainly seem to get used a lot, but I haven't seen any statistics on how they actually fare. |
A good rule of thumb, is that anything that mimics abilities or behaviours which are already in the game is possible in theory unless state otherwise.
I don't think we have any kind of siphon ability nor that it would look well or be approved at all. Imagine using a sniper, hitting the gunner and suddenly another random model drops down. Same with say indirect fire.
Well, it'd just be a case of healing the gunner while damaging a nearby model, really. "Siphoning" is really just an attempt to describe it. Functionality for both healing and damaging are in game already, it's just whether health can be used as a "resource" in this fashion.
Neither Snipers nor indirect/explosive fire would need to be affected by this, were it possible. Merely infantry small arms, given that they're the cause of most of the "deathloop" concerns anyway.
Neither suggestion are admittedly all that elegant or visually pleasing, but at the end of the day I'd accept a minor visual incongruity like this over the Maxim/DShK remaining in their current unfortunate state. Better solutions would be preferred.
Though I'd have thought that "Forcing" an unit to fire at another member of the squad than the gunner (Even if out of range) might be possible. |
Some of the points Stormjäger made are valid and indeed very annoying but it's never going to change as many people are convinced Ostheer is somehow the "best designed faction and the "benchmark" for every other faction.
IMO Ostheer is probably the most annoying faction to play against and at the same time the worst designed faction because obvious weaknesses like not having a light tank and not having good main-line infantry non-doctrinally are compensated with stupid stuff like MG42 + call-in Infantry + T0 Pgrens coming way too early.
What I hate the most about Ostheer is that any other faction allows you to have somewhat fluid infantry fights in the first minutes of the game and that's IMO the most fun time frame of COH2 matches but with Ostheer this just doesn't happen as the MG42 needs to be constantly outmaneuvered. This might not apply to 1v1 as much because the MG42 can't just cover half the map in that game mode but in 2v2 and 3v3 I find it very annoying.
Ostheer do have good mainline infantry nowadays. Grenadiers are quite good at what they do, which is to provide firepower at long range. They morph into more generalist infantry with the VSL upgrade (And with the G43 upgrade, but honestly the G43 upgrade is not very good on Grens)
No, they don't have a "light tank", but this is because they get a very early light vehicle in the form of the 222 or 251. The 222 is fantastic at the time it enters the field, and for its price, and later turns into a fairly effective AA platform, and LOS provider. The 251 is in a similar boat, being a very effective shock vehicle.
Im not really sure how outmanoeuvring the OST MG is really any worse than any other sort of infantry manoeuvring, incidentally. |
LOL. Rifleman is not fantastic mainline infantry. You are just provokating me for rage posting. But no. I will not give you what you want. First rifleman is mediocre mainline infantry who act like "best mainline". Best mainline is 5 men tommies. Even you bunch of fanboys did not still claim that "bruh rifleman is best mainline" kind a shit. Secondly they are not fucking flanking infantry. Where did you learn that they are intented to be flanking infantry ? Where did you learn that fucking rifleman intented to be flanking infantry ? They are fucking mainline infantry. MAİNLİNE İNFANTRY. On jacksons topic they are not fucking awesome. Jackson is just normal td. It can penetrate but "must" fucking penetrate. It cannot chase down tanks after nerf. Rof is not very good to. Los is depends on commander. It is not "wunderwaffe" that you claim.
You're making this too obvious. |
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Regarding the panther: If you want to stop a Panther diving you you ought to be liberally placing mines. Its intentionally survivable because it's supposed to dive.
As a final thing: The Ostwind is not "Effective" against the Sherman. How exactly are you losing fights to an Ostwind with a Sherman? |
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