Was probably because rangers at the time were probably the strongest elites in the game, and when the OP unit gets nerfed people can't abuse it anymore. It was just kinda hypocritcal literally next patch they then gave grens their damage reduction after saying they just wanted to remove it from the game. Keep in mind though that urban assault wasn't a doctrine yet, so the sprinting ranger zook blob wasn't a thing. It was pretty rare imo to see rangers wasted on super zooks when you could've had one of the best elites and jacksons backing it up.
Honestly, as much as people like to complain about Wehraboos, it does feel as though there are just as many Alliaboos floating around who really don't like to see their favourite stuff reduced in power. I imagine some of the same people complaining about rangers being nerfed were those clamouring (and possibly still clamouring, despite them really not being that bad now) for Fallschirmjager nerfs.
EDIT: It's not as though you could even describe Rangers as "bad" now, anyway. They're still fantastic.
To be fair, their wording was "Previously, they were the only ones to take less damage from all sources." in the patch notes, unless there were other comments made. It was a little "hypocritical" to add it back in, I suppose, but to my knowledge ranger's DR was inherent, not a Veterancy bonus like Grens? In any case, I don't think it's unreasonable to walk back on something if it turns out there is a good reason to do so. The only four man mainline having DR makes a little more sense. (Tommies dont count. They're fiveman when it'd matter)
Also: The patch that removed Ranger DR was the same one that introduced Urban Assault. I expect that did indeed have something to do with it. This was also before the Jackson's armour nerf.
Guys, Maxim spam is never coming back. The reason why Maxim spam was so popular were as follows:
Cons were terrible and unreliable while Maxims had the same cost.
Maxim had almost instant setup.
Maxim had much better suppression.
Maxim had a narrow arc, so multiple Maxims were needed anyway to cover an area.
Since then, all of these points have been addressed:
Cons rifles are more consistent, 7-man upgrade.
Maxim received cost and build time increases.
Maxim setup is now 3s, just like all other HMGs.
Maxim's suppression was more than halved.
Maxim's arc was improved to succ less.
Imo, buffing suppression to a middling number, a formation adjustment to reduce deathloop, and then reducing the cost by 10mp to match MG34 would be sufficient.
It would still have longer setup than old spammy Maxim.
It would still have less suppression than old spammy Maxim.
It would still be less competitive with cons than old spammy Maxim.
There's no rational reason to fear a return of Maxim spam with proposed Maxim buffs.
Shame Lelic are so stingy with updates. Could have a trial branch to test these sorts of things out.
If they just gave the Balance™ team more autonomy, especially at this point in the game's life, we might be able to get into such a better position regarding Balance. Or in a far worse position, who knows.
I suppose they're justifiably fearful of mistakes in balance making Lelic themselves look retarded though. Its likely many users think it's Lelic themselves doing these patches. They should just bite the bullet and let go of the reins though, if they're not going to continue supervising.
Hey wait a minute! Damage reductions were removed off rangers because we didn't want them in the game!!!!!111!!!11!!!!11111!11!
Conscript PPSHs are just power creeped out. They're ok, they're not 7-man or SVTs though. Also with how shocks are now and you can basically have any heavy you want with shocks in that doctrine there isn't a reason to use PPSH cons.
I never really understood why people complained so much about rangers losing their DR. They're a large squad with fantastic firepower and good RA. Especially since they can equip SuperBazookas. A DR enabled AT squad was weird.
It's odd that Grenadiers have it at Vet3, but I'd like to say it makes more sense there. I expect there are many who disagree.
That they've been powercreeped out is why I advocate for a Frontovik replacement. It'd be much easier to find a niche if you had more control over squad stats/abilities. (A vanilla "assault" squad for SOV might also be kind of nice. They still need so many changes)
EDIT: Also, Its clear you're being sarcastic, Link, and this then isnt directed at you, but; DR tied to an ability makes more sense anyway. There are also several units who still have DR if we had a look. The Kubel comes to mind. It's not quite so uncommon as people might like to think.
Also Veterancy being a consideration in Unit balance is fine. The only outlier regarding "Vet Balancing" being stupid is Riflemen's snare. I suppose they're like that to be "Unique", but it should just be tied to getting an LT or CPT out or something like that instead. Also it should use the Rifle Grenade animation.
Yeah, that's why I said "Direct fire" explosive weapons, and it being only a marginal benefit (And usually a detriment)
Tank shells sometimes do "hit" their infantry target, accuracy reductions make this less likely, which COULD help a squad... though it's pretty much infinitesimal.
Im going to go ahead and test Hit The Dirt now, and see if you are right. I'm reasonably sure it just provides Yellow Cover bonus, but I suppose it's best to be sure.
Just tested, and in fact you were right, Sander. Hit The Dirt DOES give a 10% DR, along with whichever other bonuses.
Sorry Serrith, you're actually right. I was completely mistaken. Christ, why can't the information floating around about this game just be right for once?
Won't help against being oneshot by Bundle grenades though. Marginal help against the mid-far damage of such grenades however. The oneshot range of those grenades is actually the same as "regular" grenades, which is interesting to find out.
Explosive weapons generally do not use accuracy. So in general medium cover is worse than no cover versus AOE weapons because it makes models clump up, which makes them take more AOE damage from single hits.
As far as I know Hit The Dirt gives special bonuses though, namely -10% damage for -20% accuracy (and immunity to suppression), not a medium cover bonus (-50% received accuracy). So it does help versus grenades, but not a lot.
Yeah, that's why I said "Direct fire" explosive weapons, and it being only a marginal benefit (And usually a detriment)
Tank shells sometimes do "hit" their infantry target, accuracy reductions make this less likely, which COULD help a squad... though it's pretty much infinitesimal.
Im going to go ahead and test Hit The Dirt now, and see if you are right. I'm reasonably sure it just provides Yellow Cover bonus, but I suppose it's best to be sure.
Of course not, but that's outwardly what it appeared you were doing. This was the confusion. You're unlikely to convince him of anything if you don't provide context for stuff.
That's not ppsh performance, that's cons having strong vet, it would make even single DP look good, but it wouldn't change the fact single DP is bad itself.
PPSH cons perform well at vet3, but then again, any weapon will, given con vet.
The performance of a weapon itself isn't anywhere near as important as the performance of the weapon in the hands of its wielder. You could give the Ober version of the LMG34 to Pioneers, but you'd be lying if you then tried to say the gun is just as effective. It's more useful to refer to a "weapon's" performance relative to its user.
I'd rather SOV got a Frontovik squad or something (Perhaps vanilla), rather than the PPSH upgrade continuing on, honestly. It would likely be far easier to get something workable in such a case, as you can more readily change whatever stat you may like, and create a balanced unit. The only issue I could see being that the power to convert an existing squad is quite a valuable part of the ability, rather than having to build a new one.
Mostly this. Panic button to mitigate grenade damage a dodge a wipe. Poor wording i suppose but my point was that its useful against nades.
Odd you should respond to this comment though instead of my previous post.
You are misunderstanding the ability. Hit The Dirt forces your cons to ground, immobilises them, and provides them with Yellow Cover. Not a single part of that mitigates Grenade damage in any way. Only green cover (and Building cover) reduces Grenade damage, or damage in general. Yellow cover cuts enemy accuracy in half, and Green cover cuts accuracy and damage in half. (Building cover is similar to Green, though slightly weaker)
Yellow Cover only benefits you Vs small arms (marginal benefit vs direct fire explosives due to reduced accuracy).
Double BREN comes later. LMG42 Grens also have a far better mg supporting them, stock mortar, stock elite infantry, better sniper, earlier LV that’s better anti infantry, have a snare, weapon upgrade an grenade without sidetech, much better T3 than the sad Cromwell/Centaur/FF trio and a better T4 than Hammer. In all this you are defending a guy crying that LMG42 Grens don’t straight up beat Tommies with BRENs.
Okay...
Except you didn't argue any of that. You argued specifically that a single Bren was worse than the LMG42, which is technically true, but misleading and isn't really supporting the point you were apparently trying to make.
If you "meant" that Grens are supported by nice toys, and that this is why Tommies outclassing them is fine, why didn't you just say it in the first place rather than specifically talking about the Bren vs LMG42, and going on to call the guy delusional?
It's not as though UKF is presently woefully underpowered. Arguably still a flawed faction, like OKW, and SOV though.
Factually delusional. LMG42 is a superior upgrade to a single BREN and LMG Grens do just fine, meaning you don’t HAVE to crutch on German infantry, but it’s a must pick option for simply how overpowered 5man Grens are. Even 4man LMG Grens however are more than viable.
You mentioned some doctrinal lategame you miss out on with German infantry. That’s total nonsense. Fragmentation bombs are more than enough. The stock T4 is already dominant and the doctrinal lategame units of Ostheer aren’t that amazing but Tiger Ace can be serviceable, especially with panzer tactician.
There’s some major l2p issues at play here for you and the fact you’re letting them cloud your judgement of the faction and even more than that try to call me out as being delusional is straight up sad.
Looking at the performance of a single Bren next to the LMG42 isn't a particularly useful comparison. Tommies have generally superior performance to Grens through the game(Though Grens are more flexible, due to not being forced to stick to cover (Not that cover is hard to find), and their Faust), and Single-Bren 5man Tommies still beat LMG Grens. Double Bren Tommies mop the floor with them. You pay more for Tommies than Grens for an objectively superior AI unit.
I don't believe Grens are "Terrible" at all with their LMG, but it's really not a meaningful thing to say.
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