Today if there is a large unbalance, we can thanks the community and important players who have influenced developpers, and many are here and play 90% Axis faction.
So Thanks to them for having proposed "balance updates" and turn the game to their advantage
My question, is Why bazzokas has been removed to M20 because many players
cried and hop removed
But When an OKW can have a Sturmtiger and a Konig at the same, nobody cry...
Why remove 2 M1919 in rifleman ? Because it became dangerous for elit units has Obersoldaten or Terminator unit (Faslchijager)
Let's continue....
Raketen, best anti gun of the game, 6 soldiers, can be hide at vet 1 and can retreat
Stuka don't know the dispersion when fire max range, Calliop, Katoushia, Panzewerfer know....
Sturmpionner, can have mine detection tool or Panzershecrek AND can puts in his "bag" to remove.
Well, just thanks to profiteers !
The M20's Bazooka is slightly different to having a Konigstiger and a Sturmtiger at the same time. OKW also are not in fact able to have both simultaneously, unless you manage to decrew your own ST.
Mainline infantry beating or dominating Elite infantry is indeed rather stupid. If Grenadiers got two MG42 and beat LMG rangers, would this not be a problem?
The Raketen is a very good AT gun, but it's hardly overpoweringly so, it's got advantages certainly. It has lower range than other AT guns (Other than the M42) requiring that it be closer to opposing vehicles. This is then countered by it's larger crew (Five men. Not six), and ability to retreat. To my knowledge it doesn't have the gun shield other AT guns have, but given that that's buggy anyway it's not that meaningful. The Raketen's cloak is also stationary, and means it doesn't get the powerful vet abilities of the ZIS-3, PAK, or M1.
If wiped it's also far easier to steal than any other AT gun, thanks to the retreat. Obviously this is the tradeoff for being rather harder to wipe.
The Stuka is very good... against team weapons. It's far harder to utilise against regular infantry than any other rocket arty in exchange. Very all-or-nothing.
The Sturm's Panzershreck is a meme upgrade generally. You get one Shreck, and this then leaves you effectively entirely at your enemy's mercy regarding mines. Sturms can put away their Minesweeper because they're very costly compared to other Engineers, and are intended as frontline infantry. You can't generally justify having two squads. |
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Sprint on a CQC squad is perhaps one of the strongest abilities they can have. It means that a squad they attempt to close in on, unless they throw a grenade (Which can be dodged) cannot possibly escape from them, unless they too have a sprint.
If your CQC squad has the ability to win against the opposing squad at close range, and you manage to avoid losing everything during closing in, you have forced a retreat at best, and a wipe at worst against whichever squad you don't like the look of. CQC squads without sprints can be kited around by infantry.
This assumes a lack of outside interference, obviously. It's messy otherwise. |
yes but if MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but (MG1) has less suppression the fact that (MG2) doing "less damage" is an advantage as opposed to a disadvantage in this case...
aight flipped the words
Look dude it isn't an advantage to be doing less damage no matter the reason.
Lower damage is merely a by-product of the higher suppression. The higher suppression is the advantage, merely because it comes with the lower damage does NOT mean that the lower damage itself is in any way advantageous.
Please stop trying to make this argument, it's absolutely nonsensical.
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yeah instead its affected by formation green cover and terrain... loose formation is one of the worst enemies of AOE... it means that your shots do much less overall damage as only 1 or maybe 2 models at best are hit by the aoe... green cover reduces AOE damage by 50% (i think) while terrain acts to "catch" the shell which may block all shots in its entirity depending on the terrain of the map....
hahaha that one cracks me up
but in all seriousness i agree... WP and grenades are good... just not anti infantry per se... yeah grenades do alot of damage against infantry but not for squads out in the open at least for grenades... its really risky to get close up and and grenade a mainline squad when you may soon eat a panzerfaust... id say that grenade is far more useful against team weapons more than mainline infantry tbh...
WP is good aswell as a utility tool as it can warcrime an AT gun or MG to prevent it from firing while damaging it... but remember that using WP means that there will be no further shots fired into the infantry your shooting at... its more of a utility tool more than anything
two? only shocks have it afaik...
Terrain can also cause a shot that would have scattered far too far to hit a target instead, as well. It's a factor that is hard to quantify. Green cover does indeed provide a 50% dr (Against most weaponry) to squads, yeah. I think i mentioned that already though.
The grenade can in fact be used to heavily punish a snaring squad, assuming you time it correctly. They are forced to either cancel their snare and move, or take potentially lethal damage.
If you Willy Pete an infantry squad you can then attack ground into the smoke for followup shots. The only things you lose from warcriming a squad are your MGs, and the damage from the shot you could have fired instead of the WP. The blinding/slowing/damage from the shell makes up for this last part.
I agree the shell is very useful for utility purposes as well, unless it has changed WP also debuffs vehicles (Main gun disabled?) while they are in the cloud. Team Weapons are infantry, for all intents and purposes, honestly. They have the same attributes, and so the Grenade and WP being particularly useful versus them is a point in it's AI favour, in my mind.
Also as protos has stated, in a realistic scenario you really will be getting far more out of the Comet vs infantry
Royal Engineers under the Anvil doctrine gain armour along with their Vickers, unless this was changed in a patch I am unaware of. |
true... though i think the comet still usually takes 1 or 2 rounds to kill at range 30... not too much experience with the comet`s AOE since i prefer the churchill to the comet however imma give it a try and see what`s what...
The Comet's cannon is (practically) unaffected by such things as RA, or yellow cover, and can also fire at squads it cannot see (such as through smoke, or sight blockers). It also, as mentioned, has the Warcrime Shell, and a crew-thrown grenade. (Gren DR obviously affects it, as does Green Cover. Both these things affect the Panther as well, though obviously it doesn't generally fight Grens)
The Panther's machineguns, on the other hand, have their DPS significantly reduced by squads with good RA, and also reduced by infantry squads with Armour, of which the Allies have two, to my knowledge, and also affected by yellow cover. In practice it's DPS will be but a fraction of what you might be seeing.
Pretty sure the Comet totally beats the Panther in any realistic scenario for AI duties. |
conscripts lose to volks at ranges above 10 and still bleed relatively more since volks never had their reinforcement cost adjusted to match their new price... in the end you still have to outnumber volks to win against them and granted its very much doable to delay or even beat volksgrenadiers with just conscripts... but to say that cons outclass volks and not the other way around is wrong....
I did some tests, and yeah, Volks do win above range 10, by a higher margin than I thought they did, actually, though I wasnt exactly doing the most thorough of testing. Their reinforcement costs are comparable though, 26 per volk when compared to 20 for Cons.
Id still posit that Cons are much better lategame than Volks though, especially when 7manned. |
soo by this logic we balance out the better squad with a less cost efficient upgrade
alrighty...
volksgrenadiers outclass base conscripts soo in conclusion cons PPSH should cost 30 munitions and give 6x PPSH HE nades and smoke... the better squad has now been given a less cost efficient upgrade...
that argument was quite helpful thank you...
I'd make the argument that base Cons outclass Volks, actually. Pound for pound you're getting more out of Cons at most points in the game, except during a period after STGs. The main thing holding Cons back there is that they must buy AT grenades and Molotovs, which i would agree should be tweaked, but their combat performance is similar, and Cons in the lategame are by far a better unit.
The other difference between the Assgren-PPSHcon comparison and the PPSHcon-MP40Volk comparison is that Assgrens in the lategame have no utility, and are pretty much only good as a capping squad. Both Cons and Volks still maintain utility into the lategame through snares (And for the MP40 volks, smoke) so whichever one "loses" the other unit isn't made into basically a waste of population. You could make the argument that Cons or Volks should win here, but Volks are indeed more expensive.
And again, Volks don't have merge, and MP40 Volks can't deal with buildings. |
I laugh in my own OST voice when I face SOVs players who decided to go PPSHs. it is sad that ppsh cons cant defeat my AssGrens. That doctorine is massively lacklustre and does nothing at all. I think there's no need to think about fixing it, I think what is needed is to tell players what is meta, and what isn't. PSSH is deffo not meta at all, and never will be, unless they and cons receive a massive change.
PPSH cons shouldn't be expected to beat Assgrens anyway. Cons still have their snare, and Merge. I think if they had better DPS than Assgrens you're looking at a pretty unfair unit, and Assgrens would basically be a worthless dead-end against SOV (Except for the first few minutes, before you can get the PPSH upgrade, of course). |
Not taking into account that the PPSH upgrade does not take a weapon slot?
Keeping the slot is generally meaningless, honestly. You can't directly equip them with anything else as Soviet, and opposing weapon pickups aren't the most common thing in the world. Not to mention most Axis droppables (And droppables in general) really don't benefit PPSH cons' intended role. Flamethrowers are an exception. As are BARs, but you really are unlikely to get one, and simply cannot in 1v1s.
EDIT:
And, on the other hand, if the slot is pointless, why remove it?
Don't fix problems that aren't there perhaps?
Unless you want to give ppsh cons the similar amount of utility mp40 volks get with their upgrade, in which case, additional slot is certainly not needed.
Arguably PPSH cons do already have similar utility to MP40 volks. They have their sprint, and retain their Molotov. It can be argued between whether a Smoke and regular Grenade is ultimately superior to a Sprint and Molotov, but they both have utility. Giving them both Smoke and a Grenade also makes them even more like discount Shocks, and if they they retain Oorah on top of that you may have a rather overloaded squad.
EDIT EDIT:
Is it consistent that USF can't equip 2nd LMG despite them having 2 weapon slots and m1919 taking 1?
This is indeed consistent with other mainlines (Or even elites, other than Paras) with access to ~m1919 strength LMGs. Grens have two weapon slots, and are only able to upgrade with a single MG42. USF are then still able to boost their damage further with a BAR, despite the fact the 1919 is, to my knowledge, even stronger than the LMG42.
USF merely have a different way of buying their upgrades for Infantry, the Weapon Racks are an upgrade dispenser, not quite a weapon pickup. |
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Directly comparing the Panther and Comet is a bit like comparing an AT gun and a mortar (inb4 ZiS). They simply aren't intended for the same job.
For a fair comparison you would absolutely need to place them in the context of a full army build (As with almost any unit, but for dissimilar units moreso)rather than worrying about their individual performance.
That said, I think it can be, and indeed seems to be, agreed that the Comet is superior in AI performance (And utility), and the Panther is in AT performance. |
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