Why Ostheer is OP

Ok.

You are bad.
He is not.

He knows what he talks about, you don't.

That's the argument.
Can't put it in plainer way.

And that is an ad hominem.

You aren't adressing the actual point I made.

Tommies are way more cost efficient than Grens.

You are adressing me as the person bringing up the point.

Furthermore your ad hominem is based on mere assumtions about my stats. And even when you are aware about the fact there is an ad hominem you make another ad hominem. Wow.

And that is an ad hominem.

You aren't adressing the actual point I made.

You are adressing me as the person bringing up the point.

And even your ad hominem is based on mere assumtions about my stats.

Actually, you haven't addressed my points from 115th post and 100% focused on me backing up Storm and pointing out he is incomparably better then you, which also makes for completely different balance pov due to his superior skill, because you can't even see balance problems at your rank, whatever it might be.

1. maybe in 1v1 2v2 its OP, dunno only play 3v3 and 4v4
2. 5 man grens and IS's must be pretty close when it comes to performance right? don't have the numbers, and the doctrine locks out 2 things often needed for OST, elefant and 105 arty.
3. all factions have some form of devestating play, OST is no different
4. would prefer 2x zis-3's over 2x pak 40's, stun is great, but it doesn't mean that the tank is auto-dead because of stun.
5. standard 251 for reinforcement and heal is something i very often use, but 222 and 251 flame both have a limited timeframe/area to be useful, and that short powerspike doesn't last long, and isnt that hard to deal with after a few mins.
6. ''can wipe entire squads'' yes it can, does it happen all the time? no. do other factions also have acess to good mines? yes. but no doubt great mines. OP? maybe.
7. tier 4. pzwerfer is good, but would prefer katy or calliope. brummbar OP i agree, but i am told it needs to be great due to it needing to support dives with other armour that lacks range like the panther, that it was its intended design. perhaps a armour nerf would do it more justice, Panther is a controversy to me, its great, but is also expensive with several major drawbacks, calling it the best is debatable.
8.like above
9. don't know the stats for snipers, but german sniper should have higher ROF due to allies having larger squads, but prefer to use SOV sniper personally. OP? think not.
10. pz4 best medium non-doc except for comet, don't know how to properly balance this.
11. pzgrens is great but also expensive to build and reinforce, move 2x shrecks upgrade up a tier maybe? so must be used carefully unless you want a huge manpower drain. great bordering OP.
12. mg42 is the best, hands down, but i say rightfully so when facing UKF and USF superior infantry.
13. spotting scopes is one of my favourites, either on elefant or on german mech doctrine, allows the elefant to be used more, instead of hiding it, and bringing it out when the fighting starts, and is very nice to have when enemy medium blob intent to ram/flank is approaching. since often elefant becomes a crutch lategame, i'd say elefant needs the scopes.
14. grens are ok, not bad not great

Grens are 4 men and get terribly outclassed by Tommies.

Don't bring doctrines into it. Especially not the ones that lock out lategame content for Ost.

The fact that you have to bring in a doctrine (to proove that Tommies are suppsoedly fine) prooves that you don't have a real argument. Play some Ost and enjoy the 4 Tommies in cover bs.

OST and OKW are the two easist factions in the game LOL! Allied doctines fill in gaps and are there to partially mitigate terrible faction design, Axis doctine just provides icing on the cake for already powerful factions.

Tommies are easily the worst mainline infantry right now, I suggest you play Mechanized Assault and see how easy it is to walk all over your poor Brit opponent.

Factually delusional. LMG42 is a superior upgrade to a single BREN and LMG Grens do just fine, meaning you don’t HAVE to crutch on German infantry, but it’s a must pick option for simply how overpowered 5man Grens are. Even 4man LMG Grens however are more than viable.

You mentioned some doctrinal lategame you miss out on with German infantry. That’s total nonsense. Fragmentation bombs are more than enough. The stock T4 is already dominant and the doctrinal lategame units of Ostheer aren’t that amazing but Tiger Ace can be serviceable, especially with panzer tactician.

There’s some major l2p issues at play here for you and the fact you’re letting them cloud your judgement of the faction and even more than that try to call me out as being delusional is straight up sad.

Looking at the performance of a single Bren next to the LMG42 isn't a particularly useful comparison. Tommies have generally superior performance to Grens through the game(Though Grens are more flexible, due to not being forced to stick to cover (Not that cover is hard to find), and their Faust), and Single-Bren 5man Tommies still beat LMG Grens. Double Bren Tommies mop the floor with them. You pay more for Tommies than Grens for an objectively superior AI unit.

I don't believe Grens are "Terrible" at all with their LMG, but it's really not a meaningful thing to say.

Looking at the performance of a single Bren next to the LMG42 isn't a particularly useful comparison. Tommies have generally superior performance to Grens through the game(Though Grens are more flexible, due to not being forced to stick to cover (Not that cover is hard to find), and their Faust), and Single-Bren 5man Tommies still beat LMG Grens. Double Bren Tommies mop the floor with them. You pay more for Tommies than Grens for an objectively superior AI unit.

I don't believe Grens are "Terrible" at all with their LMG, but it's really not a meaningful thing to say.

Double BREN comes later. LMG42 Grens also have a far better mg supporting them, stock mortar, stock elite infantry, better sniper, earlier LV that’s better anti infantry, have a snare, weapon upgrade an grenade without sidetech, much better T3 than the sad Cromwell/Centaur/FF trio and a better T4 than Hammer. In all this you are defending a guy crying that LMG42 Grens don’t straight up beat Tommies with BRENs.

Okay...

Double BREN comes later. LMG42 Grens also have a far better mg supporting them, stock mortar, stock elite infantry, better sniper, earlier LV that’s better anti infantry, have a snare, weapon upgrade an grenade without sidetech, much better T3 than the sad Cromwell/Centaur/FF trio and a better T4 than Hammer. In all this you are defending a guy crying that LMG42 Grens don’t straight up beat Tommies with BRENs.

Okay...

Except you didn't argue any of that. You argued specifically that a single Bren was worse than the LMG42, which is technically true, but misleading and isn't really supporting the point you were apparently trying to make.

If you "meant" that Grens are supported by nice toys, and that this is why Tommies outclassing them is fine, why didn't you just say it in the first place rather than specifically talking about the Bren vs LMG42, and going on to call the guy delusional?

It's not as though UKF is presently woefully underpowered. Arguably still a flawed faction, like OKW, and SOV though.

If you "meant" that Grens are supported by nice toys, and that this is why Tommies outclassing them is fine, why didn't you just say it in the first place rather than specifically talking about the Bren vs LMG42, and going on to call the guy delusional?

Except this is a thread about Ostheer being OP (in which I said LMG42 Grens themselves are fine despite point 14) and cardboard cat made the argument that LMG42 Grens are bad and you have to rely on doctrines, which is delusional since LMG42 Grens can more than hold their ground most of the game vs Tommies for a lower cost and much better units backing them up, until the lategame where the Ost army is flat out better overall so they can be support units then.

You absolutely cannot compare units in a vacuum.

You absolutely cannot compare units in a vacuum.

Of course not, but that's outwardly what it appeared you were doing. This was the confusion. You're unlikely to convince him of anything if you don't provide context for stuff.

Honestly all they really need to change is take the fuel cost of Tier 1 and add it to BP1, put P-Grens back in Tier 2 and if that isn't enough I would increase BP3 to 50 fuel from 35 but then maybe reduce the cost of the Panther to compensate to 175 instead of 185. Brummbar can stay at 150 fuel because it is an absolute nuker.

Honestly, this could be the first post in years that talks about OST being OP. Ost is not even close to be OP.

Players are abusing the 5men Gren + Brumm meta. But this is not being OP. This become meta because 4men-gren, P4 and Stug are not as good as they used to be.

Honestly, this could be the first post in years that talks about OST being OP. Ost is not even close to be OP.

Players are abusing the 5men Gren + Brumm meta. But this is not being OP. This become meta because 4men-gren, P4 and Stug are not as good as they used to be.

OST is actually pretty powerful... i dont think its OP but its alot closer to USF than it is to the soviets

OST is actually pretty powerful... i dont think its OP but its alot closer to USF than it is to the soviets

Yep. IMO, 5men gren meta or Ostruppen meta (or Elephant meta in 3v3/4v4), makes OST viable/playable. Otherwise they are UP. But they are not even close at being OP.

I don't think OST need 5man Grens or Ostruppen to be playable. Both of those units are very meta, and arguably overtuned at the moment, but vanilla OST is perfectly good by itself.

Yep. IMO, 5men gren meta or Ostruppen meta (or Elephant meta in 3v3/4v4), makes OST viable/playable. Otherwise they are UP. But they are not even close at being OP.

OST vanilla is kinda better than SOV vanilla pretty hard considering the recent buffs ost got to teching and several other stuff like the 7 man nerf the lategame grenadier buff and so on...

OST with ostruppen dunk on the soviets soo hard that they just cant do shit

OST vanilla is somewhat worse than UKF vanilla cuz OST vanilla is almost 100% reliant on how well you play your sniper earlygame... if you lose your sniper youre gonna have a terrible time against UKF...

OST with 5 man plays with UKF on an even playing field...

OST vs USF well... lets just say USF is considered the best faction ingame for a good reason...

in any case id rate the factions at their maximum/meta state as
USF>UKF=OST>OKW>SOV

sov takes the cake as the worst faction because your whole gameplan vs OKW revolves around the enemy not using panzerfusiliers... if they do then youre fcked... conscripts will get slaughtered and the M3 wont save you...

I haven't read all the responses, but just to the op. I think most of the stuff listed is just weapons that work, really. The rifle grenades I agree with. They are bugged a lot and I get no warning or the grenade shoots first and the guy kneels second. Extremely strong in chaos. The brumbar is possibly too strong. It's really expensive, but it works very well. Very efficient vehicle, especially in the right hands, but even a complete n00b like me can do serious damage with it.

I would actually add bundle grenades though. Even dodging them it's still very likely to get hit by it. Reduce AOE seems stupid in premise, but maybe a few more fractions of a second on the timer.

Don't forget that the first unit Sturm is the best start unit.
If you compare vs Allies faction you a big unbalance start game !

Don't forget that the first unit Sturm is the best start unit.
If you compare vs Allies faction you a big unbalance start game !

Sorry fam, best starting unit is the Section.

Don't forget that the first unit Sturm is the best start unit.
If you compare vs Allies faction you a big unbalance start game !

Rear Echelon LMAO. Waste of MP. The funny thing is, when they had volley ability that was useful and RE was Overpowered. So it got nerfed so bad that no one uses it. It doesn't even work because it got nerfed so hard. You have to catch someone crossing negative cover for that crap to work. RE OP