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It would be nice if OKW were able to build Obers sooner than the Schwere HQ as well, honestly. They're a fantastic unit, hampered by the fact they come unreasonably late. If the MG34 upgrade remains behind Panzer Auth I don't know that they'd be unreasonably strong with just their rifles, but if you were able to get them out much sooner OKW might not be forced to build 4~ volks, and it might flatten the curve a bit.
I still think OKW popcap needs a little bit of a look at too. |
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What are you even taking issue with here? The wording? You're both saying the same thing. "The KV1 is able to defeat the PzIV relatively easily for similar cost" and "The Churchill is able to take out the PzIV"
The KV1 beats the PzIV because it has a combination of a gun decent enough to penetrate the PzIV, AND because it has enough armour and health to tank shots from the PzIV. If it didn't have both it couldn't do it.
I don't know why an argument sprang from this. |
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As someone else has said, I would personally rather any halftrack comes as-is, and without an infantry squad inside it. I'd rather have the option to build whatever infantry/the HT separately, rather than have to get both when I only want the HT. |
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What Sky is probably saying is that the Panther can easily catch up with the Pershing even when you reacting late. And trading a Panther (+30 mun) for a Pershing is a good trade resource wise.
True. It's not all that helpful in direct combat scenarios with Axis tanks, but it is still nice to help escape from infantry snares and AT guns.
The fact that the Pershing is inherently "fast" means its more able to traverse the map too, and when compared to other "heavies" its easier for it to be where it needs to be. Perhaps its value is overstated, but I don't think it's a negligible feature of the Pershing. |
I don't think more people need to realize that at all. I feel like most of the forum was thrilled when the heavy stall meta was nerfed, so I really don't see how this could be the issue
It's specifically when you compare it to other similar priced heavies that it seems a bit lesser. I really think it should get 300 armor back. 960 health is still less than all the other heavies, so I don't see why it needs less in both of those categories
It's mobility is nice, but it's not worth that lesser protection when both panthers (and many other axis tanks) have a vet 1 speed boost. Imo it's mobility is very overrated specifically because of blitz
To be fair, Blitz, as you describe, is a veterancy ability that is both timed and has a munitions cost involved. The Pershing being quite speedy is still nice, given that it's an inherent trait. |
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If I'm honest, the recent announcement of this "CoH2 All Out War" 64 bit edition leads me to believe that CoH2 might have a little more support left. I don't know that one, maybe two more patches are completely out of the question, particularly if they're well crafted. |
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As an aside, and you alluded to this yourself, but utility isn't quite dead as a primary unit strength. Ostruppen.
Ostruppen are objectively terrible combatants, even when vetted, and with their weapon upgrade. Their strength lies in their utility, and the fact they can be supported with Elite infantry like Pgrens.
I think making Cons a little closer to the use-case of Ostruppen might be a good shout. Cons already have the advantage in terms of both combat ability and utility, but not in affordability, and possessing a non-doctrinal elite infantry unit to support them. Perhaps consider reducing Con costs somehow, and introducing (better) Penals, or nondoc guards. |
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Yeah, actually that's a fair point Armadillo. I think that might be better for SOV if they unlocked Molotovs and Snares through a method other than being forced to actually buy those upgrades. Perhaps being able to buy them... OR having them unlocked along with particular tier buildings? Somewhat like OST and OKW does it. They're both very powerful when combined with Oorah, though, and their other pieces of utility still can't be discounted, nor the Soviet force multipliers. There's a bit of a balancing act here.
Regarding your point on Volks: Cons and Volks are reasonably comparable early, aren't they? I'm not sure Cons are totally rolled over by the Vgrens, though I have admittedly not done extensive testing. Volks definitely get a spike when they get STGs, but this isn't an immediate upgrade, and i'd presume it should factor into their "cost". (plus, like, Volks kind of suck lategame as a combat unit. Aren't Cons significantly stronger when 7manned and vetted?)
Volks don't do so well against Allied elite infantry either, nor against US and UK mainlines arguably. Not in combat terms, unless they get extremely favourable engagements.
As I say, the other part of it is that we can't merely compare a mainline vs a mainline. Both OKW and SOV need some work to be turned into "real" factions. OST, USF, and UKF(somehow) are close to being there.
I agree that Utility has been a little downplayed, but I still think giving Sov another option, rather than trying to make Cons "better" in combat terms might be good. Perhaps giving Oorah a defensive bonus (Unlocked through vet, or through a tech), and/or giving them some inherent survivability bonus in cover might be better for them. I'm sort of just spitballing in some parts of this post. |
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I'm not quite so sure it's as easy to say that Conscripts are the "Weakest mainline" in the game. Their combat prowess may not be fantastic early, but their veterancy bonuses are great, and this lets them fight reasonably well late, particularly when combined with 7man. Primarily they're used as a delaying unit to support other soviet gear.
This is, of course, combined with the fact they've got the most utility of any mainline going. Best sandbag in the game, Cheap and powerful (Albeit slow until vet) incendiary, Snare, and a surprisingly strong mine. The two throwables are also combined with the only nondoc mainline sprint in the game, which is an absolutely fantastic ability.
Then they have the unique "Merge" ability, allowing them to consolidate squads, and keep Elite/Veteran infantry, as well as team weapons on the field much longer.
You get all that for 240mp. I think wanting Conscripts to compete directly with other mainlines in combat terms is a little silly.
Really, a Penal rework to turn them into a viable "Combat squad" for the Soviets would be preferable. That, or giving them Guards (Or a similar unit to guards) nondoctrinally as an alternative option might be better. You'd then choose between extreme utility, or combat potential, or a combination of both in seperate units.
I'd suggest Nondoc "Guards" not have PTRS, nor Button. Perhaps being unlocked with T3, or even straight away if they can be somehow balanced for that. Probably the latter, OKW have the same sort of "idea" with the choice between Volks and Obers, but the fact Obers come so late means you have to do weird army comps till the Schwere, or rely on losing a Volk squad or two.
I know this sounds like a lot of work, given that we may or may not even be getting another patch, but SOV kind of needs a lot doing to it. |
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